Margaret Thatcher and the new conservatism (from 1975) - Page 2

Earnie Shavers · 10-13-2011, 10:17 PM

I like that it seems that absolutely everyone in London knows that it's Trafalgar Square the first Saturday after she dies.

Anyway, both Reagan and Thatcher are hugely complicated. Anyone who thinks either are above criticism clearly have absolutely no - zero - understanding of the pickle we're all in today, or in the case of Reagan/US, the pickle your politics are in today. And anyone who thinks they were wholly the spawn of Satan also need to do a bit of a re-read. At the very least, Thatcher did claw Britain out of the dark, and Reagan was, at the very least, a great figurehead and 'leader' for the US, certainly re-established a great confidence in 'America'. But their actual achievements in office, and legacy beyond - complicated.

It's interesting though that in the US, Reagan is deified, almost untouchable, with the mythology waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the reality (and in such a short time), while in the UK, you can pretty much only whisper Thatchers name, and to be tagged as a fan, or worse, 'Thatcherite'... Excuse me sir, I think you should leave.

Vlad n U 2 · 10-13-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INDY500

Regime - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of REGIME

2
a : mode of rule or management
b : a form of government <a socialist regime>
c : a government in power
d : a period of rule

Are you going to tell me that communist states don't, and have never existed? Please don't say yes.

They never have, there is no such thing as a communist state. Communism = a stateless, classless, moneyless society.

Socialism, which is the transitional period towards communism, however, does (in some cases, as there are numerous different tendencies that each propose a different path towards communism) have a state.

So you may be confusing the two words.

INDY500 · 10-13-2011, 10:29 PM

You're right. Pay no attention to the flag's color, 5 pointed red star or hammer & sickle. They have no more symbolic meanings than our flag's 13 stripes or 50 stars.

My bad.

Vlad n U 2 · 10-13-2011, 10:32 PM

The flag doesn't matter, the nature of the USSR was hardly socialist. I'm guessing you're one of those people who still staunchly believe that North Korea and China are socialist, am I correct in making that assumption?

cobl04 · 10-13-2011, 10:34 PM

I'm completely ignorant when it comes to world politics so take this with a few grains of salt but to me it seems you're being super-technical vlad. Maybe pure communism never existed but I'm sure it existed in some way. And China is governed by the Communist Party! I would think if you surveyed 100 people just about all of then would say communism existed.

Earnie Shavers · 10-13-2011, 10:37 PM

China isn't even remotely communist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobl04

And China is governed by the Communist Party!

Yeah, and North Korea is a democracy.

Vlad n U 2 · 10-13-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobl04

I'm completely ignorant when it comes to world politics so take this with a few grains of salt but to me it seems you're being super-technical vlad. Maybe pure communism never existed but I'm sure it existed in some way. And China is governed by the Communist Party! I would think if you surveyed 100 people just about all of then would say communism existed.

Heh, I'm not really being that technical as a society which lacks a class, state and money has never existed in this world at all. I understand what you mean that they're governed by a so-called Communist Party but the truth is that the nature of the political system is anything but.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

China isn't even remotely communist, no matter what they call themselves.

+1

Vlad n U 2 · 10-13-2011, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

Yeah, and North Korea is a democracy.

Lil Kim gets 100% in every election so he must be doing something right.

cobl04 · 10-13-2011, 10:49 PM

I'll just shut up because I'm way out of my depth. But do you see how people who aren't particularly well versed in international politics would think communism exists?

Vlad n U 2 · 10-13-2011, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobl04

I'll just shut up because I'm way out of my depth. But do you see how people who aren't particularly well versed in international politics would think communism exists?

Yeah, definitely. I personally don't mind if you ask questions like the previous, it's all a part of learning.

Earnie Shavers · 10-13-2011, 10:55 PM

Yes, of course. And China is always referred to as 'communist' by those who should - or more likely do - know better (media, politicians), so it's totally understandable. But there's absolutely nothing communist about China. Authortarian government of no particular ideology, and a wholly capitalist economy, simply continuing to give a shout out to 'communism' in it's branding (but you won't actually ever hear it from them), and it has in reality left no trace within their politics or economy for decades.

Irvine511 · 10-14-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

Anyway, both Reagan and Thatcher are hugely complicated. Anyone who thinks either are above criticism clearly have absolutely no - zero - understanding of the pickle we're all in today, or in the case of Reagan/US, the pickle your politics are in today. And anyone who thinks they were wholly the spawn of Satan also need to do a bit of a re-read. At the very least, Thatcher did claw Britain out of the dark, and Reagan was, at the very least, a great figurehead and 'leader' for the US, certainly re-established a great confidence in 'America'. But their actual achievements in office, and legacy beyond - complicated.

thank you.

financeguy · 10-14-2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

It's interesting though that in the US, Reagan is deified, almost untouchable, with the mythology waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the reality (and in such a short time), while in the UK, you can pretty much only whisper Thatchers name, and to be tagged as a fan, or worse, 'Thatcherite'... Excuse me sir, I think you should leave.

Yes, and David Cameron's Conservative Party is avowedly not Thatcherite.

purpleoscar · 10-15-2011, 01:47 PM

Charles Moore on Margaret Thatcher: Chapter 5 of 5 - Uncommon Knowledge - National Review Online

INDY500 · 10-17-2011, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Yeah, definitely. I personally don't mind if you ask questions like the previous, it's all a part of learning.

I have a fitting question for you.

The Hammers - The Hammers is the nickname of what English football team?

Earnie Shavers · 10-17-2011, 08:16 PM

West Ham. And... ?

INDY500 · 10-17-2011, 08:31 PM

Monty Python Communist Quiz sketch - YouTube

cobl04 · 10-18-2011, 02:50 AM

Kieran McConville · 10-18-2011, 08:50 AM

Coventry City won the FA Cup in what year? Che? Anyone? no, well I'm not surprised you didn't get it, it was in fact a trick question, Coventry City have never won the FA Cup.

cobl04 · 10-19-2011, 03:33 AM

Socrates himself was permanently pissed...

10-13-2011, 10:17 PM	#21
Earnie Shavers Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London/Sydney Posts: 6,609 Local Time: 10:06 AM	I like that it seems that absolutely everyone in London knows that it's Trafalgar Square the first Saturday after she dies. Anyway, both Reagan and Thatcher are hugely complicated. Anyone who thinks either are above criticism clearly have absolutely no - zero - understanding of the pickle we're all in today, or in the case of Reagan/US, the pickle your politics are in today. And anyone who thinks they were wholly the spawn of Satan also need to do a bit of a re-read. At the very least, Thatcher did claw Britain out of the dark, and Reagan was, at the very least, a great figurehead and 'leader' for the US, certainly re-established a great confidence in 'America'. But their actual achievements in office, and legacy beyond - complicated. It's interesting though that in the US, Reagan is deified, almost untouchable, with the mythology waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the reality (and in such a short time), while in the UK, you can pretty much only whisper Thatchers name, and to be tagged as a fan, or worse, 'Thatcherite'... Excuse me sir, I think you should leave. __________________

10-19-2011, 03:33 AM	#40
cobl04 45:33 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: East Point to Shaolin Posts: 59,011 Local Time: 08:06 PM	Socrates himself was permanently pissed... __________________

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10-13-2011, 10:29 PM	#23
INDY500 Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The American Resistance Posts: 4,754 Local Time: 04:06 AM	You're right. Pay no attention to the flag's color, 5 pointed red star or hammer & sickle. They have no more symbolic meanings than our flag's 13 stripes or 50 stars. My bad.

10-13-2011, 10:32 PM	#24
Vlad n U 2 Blue Crack Addict Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 28,387 Local Time: 08:36 PM	The flag doesn't matter, the nature of the USSR was hardly socialist. I'm guessing you're one of those people who still staunchly believe that North Korea and China are socialist, am I correct in making that assumption?

10-13-2011, 10:34 PM	#25
cobl04 45:33 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: East Point to Shaolin Posts: 59,011 Local Time: 08:06 PM	I'm completely ignorant when it comes to world politics so take this with a few grains of salt but to me it seems you're being super-technical vlad. Maybe pure communism never existed but I'm sure it existed in some way. And China is governed by the Communist Party! I would think if you surveyed 100 people just about all of then would say communism existed.

10-13-2011, 10:49 PM	#29
cobl04 45:33 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: East Point to Shaolin Posts: 59,011 Local Time: 08:06 PM	I'll just shut up because I'm way out of my depth. But do you see how people who aren't particularly well versed in international politics would think communism exists?

10-13-2011, 10:55 PM	#31
Earnie Shavers Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London/Sydney Posts: 6,609 Local Time: 10:06 AM	Yes, of course. And China is always referred to as 'communist' by those who should - or more likely do - know better (media, politicians), so it's totally understandable. But there's absolutely nothing communist about China. Authortarian government of no particular ideology, and a wholly capitalist economy, simply continuing to give a shout out to 'communism' in it's branding (but you won't actually ever hear it from them), and it has in reality left no trace within their politics or economy for decades.

10-15-2011, 01:47 PM	#34
purpleoscar Rock n' Roll Doggie ALL ACCESS Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: In right wing paranoia Posts: 7,613 Local Time: 03:06 AM	Charles Moore on Margaret Thatcher: Chapter 5 of 5 - Uncommon Knowledge - National Review Online

10-17-2011, 08:16 PM	#36
Earnie Shavers Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: London/Sydney Posts: 6,609 Local Time: 10:06 AM	West Ham. And... ?

10-18-2011, 02:50 AM	#38
cobl04 45:33 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: East Point to Shaolin Posts: 59,011 Local Time: 08:06 PM

10-18-2011, 08:50 AM	#39
Kieran McConville ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Hi, Violet Posts: 10,253 Local Time: 08:06 PM	Coventry City won the FA Cup in what year? Che? Anyone? no, well I'm not surprised you didn't get it, it was in fact a trick question, Coventry City have never won the FA Cup.