Mandatory Health Insurance part 3

[BVS]

Originally Posted by digitize

HSAs are a worse idea than the status quo. At least the middle class who can afford insurance get the benefit of spreading risk around and not being out hundreds of thousands of dollars that they'd never be able to afford if they were just required to save up with an HSA.

HSAs are great for people that can afford it, for the healthy, and they are great for providers. This is the perspective that INDY is coming from. He's someone who can afford it and he's a health provider(that I assume works more with cash than insurance companies), so that's his limited scope.

No way in hell do HSAs work for anyone else.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Swan269

lives are more important than budgets and bottom lines.

Of course they are, but we live in a society that money IS god. Even the god fearing Tea Partiers worship the free market and capitalism over their version of Jesus.

Originally Posted by Swan269

our govt can do this if we just let them.

Now I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but you do come off sounding slightly naive and a little too trusting of the government. To me at the end of the day, the people and the health providers would be the ideal scenario to have in charge of healthcare, but NO ONE has come up with a model that allows that. So I trust the government over a profit driven insurance industry. But by no means do I ever place ALL my trust in a government.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by BVS

HSAs are great for people that can afford it, for the healthy, and they are great for providers. This is the perspective that INDY is coming from. He's someone who can afford it and he's a health provider(that I assume works more with cash than insurance companies), so that's his limited scope.

No way in hell do HSAs work for anyone else.

I wouldn't even say that they're great for the wealthy. I think even rich people would generally prefer to have several hundred dollars per month taken out of their paycheck then to build up and potentially surrender hundreds of thousands of dollars in case they get cancer.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by digitize

I wouldn't even say that they're great for the wealthy. I think even rich people would generally prefer to have several hundred dollars per month taken out of their paycheck then to build up and potentially surrender hundreds of thousands of dollars in case they get cancer.

Yeah, well that's why I say the well to do and the healthy. And you're right they don't really work for major ongoing illnesses unless you saved all your life and are only sick at the end. But you don't "lose" the money like you would in insurance. A healthy 27 year old who is making six figures can save money pretty easy, so at the end of the fiscal year he still has access to his/her HSA, but they seemingly "wasted" their insurance money since they didn't really use it.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by BVS

Of course they are, but we live in a society that money IS god. Even the god fearing Tea Partiers worship the free market and capitalism over their version of Jesus.



Now I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but you do come off sounding slightly naive and a little too trusting of the government. To me at the end of the day, the people and the health providers would be the ideal scenario to have in charge of healthcare, but NO ONE has come up with a model that allows that. So I trust the government over a profit driven insurance industry. But by no means do I ever place ALL my trust in a government.

you and i agree totally here, but the govt has a great track record of taking care of people in social programs. my step dad worked at the VA for 35 years in washington and raves about what a smooth effiecent machine it is so why not. the government has nothing to gain just by helping everyone out. i personally feel that rich persons are the evil behind all of our troubles so we should just take everything they have and give it to the downtrodden and unemployed. they don't deserve to live a better life than we do just because they have greed on there side. i don't like being called naive seeing as that nothing people and the private industries they work in really works. the govt. will do this and we will all be happy. ideally govt control over prices, salaries, and markets will lead to fairness and happiness. kinda like i really believe so much of the worlds problems would be solved by simple uniformity (kind like school uniforms solves so many social issues) if everyone has exactly the same of everything then greed takes a huge hit! all of my trust will always be with the govt, as people are flawed, not govt.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Swan269

you and i agree totally here, but the govt has a great track record of taking care of people in social programs. my step dad worked at the VA for 35 years in washington and raves about what a smooth effiecent machine it is so why not. the government has nothing to gain just by helping everyone out. i personally feel that rich persons are the evil behind all of our troubles so we should just take everything they have and give it to the downtrodden and unemployed. they don't deserve to live a better life than we do just because they have greed on there side. i don't like being called naive seeing as that nothing people and the private industries they work in really works. the govt. will do this and we will all be happy. ideally govt control over prices, salaries, and markets will lead to fairness and happiness. kinda like i really believe so much of the worlds problems would be solved by simple uniformity (kind like school uniforms solves so many social issues) if everyone has exactly the same of everything then greed takes a huge hit! all of my trust will always be with the govt, as people are flawed, not govt.

I mean no offense by calling you naive, my apologies. It's just that I think history has proven that government has often been flawed.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by BVS

I mean no offense by calling you naive, my apologies. It's just that I think history has proven that government has often been flawed.

for social programs, very very rare. You can give me one failure and I'll give you 20 great programs. Europe is a great model for us and we refuse to look at there programs of efficiency and fairness. Hell, I hear Canada has it right. I bet Mexico is even better too but I haven't really looked into it.

plus, i have never heard of anyone speak bad about there own healthcare systems (in other countries.) we are the only ones who complain so we are the ones in the wrong clearly.

[ryancoke71]

I am Canadian and I thank God every day that I don't have to worry about all of this. I am naive, because I don't understand the opposition to Universal health care. In my case, my infant son was extremely ill. They couldn't treat him in the city where I live, so they air ambulanced him to Toronto where he got world class care. He was hospitalized for 3 weeks. When he was well enough to travel, he was flown home on a plane just for him. He had months of follow up. My cost out of pocket? Nothing. Of course we do pay taxes, but I cannot even imagine the outcome of my situation if I did not live in Canada.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by ryancoke71

I am Canadian and I thank God every day that I don't have to worry about all of this. I am naive, because I don't understand the opposition to Universal health care. In my case, my infant son was extremely ill. They couldn't treat him in the city where I live, so they air ambulanced him to Toronto where he got world class care. He was hospitalized for 3 weeks. When he was well enough to travel, he was flown home on a plane just for him. He had months of follow up. My cost out of pocket? Nothing. Of course we do pay taxes, but I cannot even imagine the outcome of my situation if I did not live in Canada.

perfect example of I am sure of millions. We should have this. great health care that hardly costs anything and it is fair. I don't want to think about it more anymore either. I should probably go to Canada, as the USA is severly flawed.

[ryancoke71]

We pay through taxes, so it does cost us, but if something major happens, as it did to my family, we don't have to worry about losing our house. My grandfather doesn't have to worry about not having coverage because of pre-existing health conditions.

My son is nicknamed the "Million dollar baby" by our doctor. From what he told me the costs would be if we actually paid out of pocket, this is true.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by ryancoke71

We pay through taxes, so it does cost us, but if something major happens, as it did to my family, we don't have to worry about losing our house. My grandfather doesn't have to worry about not having coverage because of pre-existing health conditions.

My son is nicknamed the "Million dollar baby" by our doctor. From what he told me the costs would be if we actually paid out of pocket, this is true.

taxes are the best. in all honesty, i wish i could give the govt 80-90% of what I make then I wouldn't have to worry about much. I trust them to make the best decesioins for me.

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Swan269

perfect example of I am sure of millions. We should have this. great health care that hardly costs anything and it is fair. I don't want to think about it more anymore either. I should probably go to Canada, as the USA is severly flawed.

Like Amy said, it's not free. It does cost us through taxes, both at the provincial and federal level. As healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction, the federal government transfers billions to the province every year to spend on healthcare.

Our healthcare is not perfect and there are problems, although the issues are different in each province. But it relieves a mental burden on all of us, who don't have to worry about losing our homes if we get sick. If my unemployed cousin, who is otherwise healthy, suddenly gets sick, he'll get quality healthcare no matter what.

And that is, in my view, one of the best things about this country.

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Swan269

taxes are the best. in all honesty, i wish i could give the govt 80-90% of what I make then I wouldn't have to worry about much. I trust them to make the best decesioins for me.

I think you just gave some of us an aneurysm.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

[ryancoke71]

Granted, the system isn't perfect. However, not having to worry about healthcare is such a blessing. We all have a health card, we show it when we go to the hospital/clinic, and then we are good. There are some tests that we are charged for. That being said, I never have to worry about going to the doctor because of finances. Sadly, I have some American friends that do.

I don't totally trust the government to always make the best decisions for me. However, in this area, I am pretty satisfied.

ETA: I just read BoMac's post. It is indeed one of the best things about this country.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Swan269

taxes are the best. in all honesty, i wish i could give the govt 80-90% of what I make then I wouldn't have to worry about much. I trust them to make the best decesioins for me.

Now I get it...

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by BoMac

Like Amy said, it's not free. It does cost us through taxes, both at the provincial and federal level. As healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction, the federal government transfers billions to the province every year to spend on healthcare.

Our healthcare is not perfect and there are problems, although the issues are different in each province. But it relieves a mental burden on all of us, who don't have to worry about losing our homes if we get sick. If my unemployed cousin, who is otherwise healthy, suddenly gets sick, he'll get quality healthcare no matter what.

And that is, in my view, one of the best things about this country.

I agree with you everyone wins because of govt efficiency. i am sure the problems are minimal. what i mean by free is, after i pay my taxes, which is like paying myself, i don't have to think about anything else.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by BoMac

I think you just gave some of us an aneurysm.

Out of curiosity, how old are you?

old enough to know that industry and money are the root of all problems.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by ryancoke71

Granted, the system isn't perfect. However, not having to worry about healthcare is such a blessing. We all have a health card, we show it when we go to the hospital/clinic, and then we are good. There are some tests that we are charged for. That being said, I never have to worry about going to the doctor because of finances. Sadly, I have some American friends that do.

I don't totally trust the government to always make the best decisions for me. However, in this area, I am pretty satisfied.

ETA: I just read BoMac's post. It is indeed one of the best things about this country.

too bad you have to pay anything out of pocket. we shouldn't have to just to live well.

[Swan269]

Originally Posted by BVS

Now I get it...

noted, and sarcasim is quite hurtful. just because i want the govt to take care of me in all aspects doesn't make it wrong. if we just gave the govt all of our money, we would have no deficit, then we could move on with fairness, price controls, and heavy regulation.

[ryancoke71]

I don't mind at all. I have yet to have a test that needs to be paid for.