John Allen Muhammad execution set for Nov. 10, should there be a Stay?

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2861U2 said:
I can't speak for others, but I'd actually gladly have my taxes slightly raised to help support the DP costs.
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Sick... you're willing to pay more to kill people who you are not absolutely guaranteed are guilty, yet you are not willing to pay more to help people with medical needs? Jesus would be proud. At least you are consistent with your wanting to see people die. :shrug:

2861U2 said:
Excuse me? Is it possibly for you to deliver a post absent of a personal attack, because I rarely see one from you. "Bloodlust?" Not quite, BVS. So get off it. My "moral teachings" seem to suit me and my opinions just fine as far as the concepts of justice and personal responsibility go.
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It wasn't personal, it was about the "religious right" in general, I see HUGE hypocrisy.
 
2861U2 said:
Second, I can't speak for others, but I'd actually gladly have my taxes slightly raised to help support the DP costs.
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Haha well I'm sure if I ran down a list of things I am glad my tax dollars support, you'd be horrified, so that's sort of a non-starter.
 
RedRocksU2 said:
I keep on editing my replies to you Mia. Good points however on your part.
I wonder what would be your solution for these people.
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Thank you, Carlos. Like anitram said, I do appreciate your honesty.

Like I mentioned above, I wish it were possible for criminals to get some sort of mental rehabilitation. I think it's unfortunate that, given all the medications out there, that killing a severely mentally disabled man was the solution. I don't think killing off criminals will bring us any closer to understanding more about mental disorders among them, and working toward restoring that chemical balance. There is still a stigma toward mental health in this country. Many people are walking around with significant impairments and will not go in for treatment (or perhaps can't afford it?) I just don't get it. Mental trauma is just as serious as physical trauma. Mental trauma results from chemical imbalances that can be treated. I don't know the logistics of how a prison system is run, or the funding, or anything. But I know rehabilitation works, and, given the biochemistry behind it, I think it is more effective than punishment.
 
You see, I understand you...you make complete sense.
However, do you think that someone like Garrido could be treated?
 
RedRocksU2 said:
I keep on editing my replies to you Mia. Good points however on your part.
I wonder what would be your solution for these people.
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You're aware of the four goals of corrections? Deterrence, incapacitation, rehabilitation and retribution. The death penalty does not meet all these. It's a failure by virtue of the finality of it. A solution lies in meeting as many of these goals as possible. Then, when you add onto this the incarcerated has a strong history of mental impairment, you need further treatment that goes straight to the root of his problems. It takes years. Failure is frequent. Recidivism is common. But it's not absolutely unlikely. It's not beyond rational realms of expectation sometimes the right methods will help. People seem to think the corrections system is this vast vacuum that sucks in inmates and spits out repeat offenders en masse. I'd have to look up stats on your state and federal inmates, but I don't think it could be anywhere near 100%. So currently, even the faulty system you have in place works for some. With improvement, it could work on even more.
 
RedRocksU2 said:
You see, I understand you...you make complete sense.
However, do you think that someone like Garrido could be treated?
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From what I've read regarding his psychological evaluation, he was mentally competent to stand trial, so he apparently wasn't nearly as mentally impaired as Muhammad was.

One thing that is important to note, is that the crimes themselves can vary, but a chemical imbalance is a chemical imbalance. So yes, as sick and disgusting as his actions are, I do believe his condition can be treated.

It was determined that he was a sexual deviant, which was brought on by years of chronic drug abuse. The drugs obviously would have affected the workings of his brain and impaired his thinking.
 
unico said:
From what I've read regarding his psychological evaluation, he was mentally competent to stand trial, so he apparently wasn't nearly as mentally impaired as Muhammad was.
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Didn't Muhammad stand trial? I wasn't aware that there was a finding of unfitness in that case?
 
Angela Harlem said:
Your tongue in cheek aside, do you really think it works? Based on what, please? I've been researching in criminology for too many years now, and have never once seen any empirical or otherwise supporting data for the death penalty.
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oh, sorry. i was completely joking. i'm very much against the death penalty.
 
anitram said:
Didn't Muhammad stand trial? I wasn't aware that there was a finding of unfitness in that case?
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Oh he did stand trial after all. Initially I think he chose to represent himself but then changed his mind and went with a counsel. That evaluation was done by the psychiatrist that the defense lawyers hired. He refused to be interviewed by the prosecution's psychiatrist.
 
2861U2 said:
No. Points for the gigantic leap, though. :up:
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How big a leap is this?

Nearly 60,000 marijuana offenders are incarcerated in the United States at any given time, according to a study published in the Federation of American Scientists' "Drug Policy Analysis Bulletin." More than a quarter of marijuana offenders are incarcerated for personal possession, with no other drugs involved in the offense.

The total cost to taxpayers of marijuana-related incarceration exceeds $1.2 billion per year, according to the study.
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Can we use those $1.2 billion elsewhere? Yes. Prison overcrowding is a poor excuse for execution. How big a leap was your explanation?












































this big?
 
unico said:
You think we don't care about the families? It happened in my neighborhood ffs. If you don't mind, could you please post the info about victims' families overwhelmingly support the DP?
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I never said you or anyone didn't care about the families. I'm saying I don't quite understand how someone would ever have more sympathy for a killer (whose "life" as he knew it would basically be over, DP or not) than the family who might receive some minuscule measure of peace knowing the person is no longer walking the earth. As far as the second part of your post, I can't find any concrete numbers one way or the other, but I've seen dozens of videos in class and out showing such-and-such a murder trial, and the family wishing for the DP. :shrug:

coolian2 said:
would you also gladly have your taxes raised in support of healthcare, or roading?
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Healthcare no, roads probably.

BVS said:
Sick... you're willing to pay more to kill people who you are not absolutely guaranteed are guilty, yet you are not willing to pay more to help people with medical needs? Jesus would be proud. At least you are consistent with your wanting to see people die. :shrug:
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Yep, you got me. I want mass murderers who are found through DNA guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to die, and I also want poor people without healthcare to die. It's all part of my mass bloodlust. :evil:

Well done, though, for again knowing what Jesus would think of me.

Tiger Edge said:
How big a leap is this?

Can we use those $1.2 billion elsewhere? Yes. Prison overcrowding is a poor excuse for execution. How big a leap was your explanation?
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You're right, marijuana possession isn't the most serious crime, and I would generally support other forms of punishment for it instead of prison. However, the prison overcrowding "excuse" isn't a small one. A problem like that has ripple effects throughout the prison, creating all sorts of additional physical and mental problems for the inmates, and for people concerned about rehabilitation, I would hope they'd be a little more worried about the issue.
 
2861U2 said:
I'm saying I don't quite understand how someone would ever have more sympathy for a killer (whose "life" as he knew it would basically be over, DP or not) than the family who might receive some minuscule measure of peace knowing the person is no longer walking the earth.
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It's not sympathy. It's knowing the system is flawed, and having moral character. That's it, pretty simple. :shrug:
 
2861U2 said:
I never said you or anyone didn't care about the families. I'm saying I don't quite understand how someone would ever have more sympathy for a killer (whose "life" as he knew it would basically be over, DP or not) than the family who might receive some minuscule measure of peace knowing the person is no longer walking the earth. As far as the second part of your post, I can't find any concrete numbers one way or the other, but I've seen dozens of videos in class and out showing such-and-such a murder trial, and the family wishing for the DP. :shrug:
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Nobody ever said that not supporting the death penalty is having more sympathy for the killer. How you even jumped to that conclusion is beyond me. I also fail to understand how killing the criminal shows support for the families.

Just because you've seen a few videos, I would not assume that that means that victims' families are in overwhelming support for it. There are even groups of victims' families out there who say otherwise.

I don't understand why something that has no empirical evidence to prove it is effective is still in use. Medications have to go through numerous clinical trials, and lots of research is done to prove effectiveness. They are PROVEN to work. The death penalty is NOT, and as Angela stated earlier, does not meet all the goals of corrections. Doesn't it seem bizarre to you that this system resorts to satisfying personal beliefs over proven research and facts? Would you stand for that in any other scenario? (medicine, etc.)

Law should be based on reason and logic. There is no single rational and logical reasoning to support the death penalty.
 
2861U2 said:
I never said you or anyone didn't care about the families. I'm saying I don't quite understand how someone would ever have more sympathy for a killer (whose "life" as he knew it would basically be over, DP or not) than the family who might receive some minuscule measure of peace knowing the person is no longer walking the earth. As far as the second part of your post, I can't find any concrete numbers one way or the other, but I've seen dozens of videos in class and out showing such-and-such a murder trial, and the family wishing for the DP. :shrug:
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why is the USA the only developed nation to implement the death penalty? why do you think the rest of the developed world doesn't use it as a punishment?
 
How the fuck should I know why they kill each other less? I know it'd be simple to proclaim it just guns, but I don't pretend it's that shallow. Again, why is their murder rate so much higher than Japan? I guess people are different.

Primarily I would say people die because of the relationships they choose. Your chances of being killed by a stranger are remarkably slim, so watch out for those you know.
 
You haven't done shit so let's see it.


Don't try to deny your allegiance.

donkey-democrat-logo.jpg
 
HyperU2 said:
Primarily I would say people die because of the relationships they choose. Your chances of being killed by a stranger are remarkably slim, so watch out for those you know.
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^That^ and economics/poverty.

But the death penalty isn't a deterrent to all this violence, or is it? (I say it's not)
 
HyperU2 said:
You haven't done shit so let's see it.


Don't try to deny your allegiance.

donkey-democrat-logo.jpg
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um, you got me? is that what you were trying to do? is it much of a shocker that it would be impossible for me to vote for the GOP on a national ticket?

or have you, again, run out of gas and are going to start calling people cunts and n*ggers?

all the gun data is effectively presented in the gun thread.
 
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