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#21 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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I was thinking more about the fact that it's gone uber-viral, with over 15M views in less than a week. True, it might be "inside baseball," but I'm always fascinated any time Jesus invades the pop culture.
__________________I'm kind of amused by some of the drive-by comments regarding the historicity of the Gospels/church. There was indeed a Christian church in the Bible, though it was nowhere near as organized and hierarchical then as it became -- more a band of isolated communities spreading Good News from person to person and village to village, with the disciples in Jerusalem forming an initial theological council (the first of which was held in roughly 49 AD). Both the term "Christian" -- which in the Greek literally meant "little Christs" -- and the "church" -- Greek ecclessia -- date within years of Jesus' death and resurrection, and within years of those initial communities forming, Paul was already writing letters stressing freedom from religion. Which makes me think that we've not come all that far from where we started... |
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#22 | |
ONE
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#23 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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^
"There was no Christian Church in the Bible." Perhaps BVS meant "Christian Church" in the uber-hierarchical Catholic sense, but this comment doesn't line up with the reality was that there was a church in the Bible -- lots of them, in fact. Paul spent a lot of time writing to and visiting with them, and the early followers of Christ spent a lot of time trying to sort out what corresponded with Jesus' teachings and what didn't. (The gnostic heresy was in full bloom almost immediately after Jesus' death and resurrection.) And as far as what Jesus said/didn't say (your comment asserted that the church fathers "attribut(ed) quotes to Jesus that he most likely never said"), there's a great deal of evidence -- even among liberal scholars such as the Jesus seminar -- for the historical record of Jesus' words and deeds. |
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#24 | |
Blue Crack Addict
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#25 | |
ONE
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#26 | |
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#27 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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I saw that video on Facebook. Found it interesting. I didn't realize it had gone viral (though I should have known when five or so of my friends all posted it).
It wasn't quite as earth-shattering as the guy in the video seemed to think it was. It was a supposedly radical refutation of the religion, but was actually pretty tame and stuck to the basic assumptions and theology of the Christendom. Which in my mind isn't necessarily bad, since I happen to be okay with being a Christian and being involved with my church. Still it wasn't as radical push-the-envelope as I think it was intended to be. I think it's considered "cool" to be anti-religion but pro-Jesus, but I also think it's kind of tired. Maybe it's because I'm naturally more religious than spiritual? I don't know. I believe in church--maybe not the hierarchical (sp) Church--but the church in the sense of a community of believers. Christianity has always been a social religion, and I don't think it's well served when Christians swear off the church in favor of going off to be "spiritual" by themselves somewhere. |
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#28 | |
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Course, then again, I haven't really considered myself a Christian for some time now, and you're referring to people who would call themselves Christians, so... I have absolutely no problem with people going to church, though, if they so wish. I fully understand the whole idea of wanting to gather with other people to share your thoughts and beliefs and come together for comfort or friendship and to praise whomever you worship together and all that sort of thing. If I could find a church I felt comfortable enough to be in, that didn't subscribe to ritual so much, I'd actually like to check it out. |
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#29 |
ONE
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What does Satan think of religion, I wonder?
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#30 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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The early church struggled with divisions along ethnic lines. Since the early followers were Jewish, there was a belief that -- since Jesus Himself was a devout Jew -- Jewish rites still needed to be upheld, particularly circumcision as a sign of submission to the law of Moses. This view was even upheld by Peter. Paul, himself a devout Jew, took a decidedly different view, with the belief that Jesus completed the law, thus allowing new followers in Jesus to live under grace, not under a fulfilled and completed law of Moses. You can see the early church founders struggling to work out this concept of justification by faith and grace, not by rigid adherence to the law -- a principle lived out by Jesus Himself. Again, how far we have(n't) come. |
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#31 |
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The early Christians also did not join the Jewish revolt against the pagan Roman state, as they firmly believed that Jesus was going to return like a thief in the night (ie. at any time, not thousands of years later). They were preparing their hearts for the arrival of the kingdom and they most certainly did not believe, in the early days, that they had to overtake the state or that it was necessary or desirable for the state to be a Christian one. Instead, they were focused inwardly.
Again, how far we haven't come. |
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#32 |
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It doesn't seem to me this young man's discontents are much analogous to the deeply fraught conflicts over fundamental doctrine (eschatology, soteriology etc.) that characterized early Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism. He's talking about something far more mundane and insidious--the steady drip-drip-drip of petty corruptions, hypocrisies and 'sins of omission' and the corrosive effect they can have on a community's morale and especially on its young people. It's not that he's disagreeing with the people he's criticizing on core doctrinal issues (as Sean pointed out), rather he's charging them with failing to live up to their own professed beliefs. I realize it's common rhetorical practice in Christianity to analogize these things, but from the outside at least that can sometimes read rather strange--it seems to trivialize the enormity of Paul et al.'s achievement in articulating a distinct new theology in a time of great cultural and intellectual ferment and turmoil, while at the same time distorting and overstating the nature of the differences between would-be whistleblowers and their communities.
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#33 |
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i did not want to start a new thread so I will just put this here
Black wedding banned by Baptist church because with religion, it is okay and legal to discriminate (hate) |
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#34 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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Wow. ![]() But based on what I read in the article, it doesn't sound like a church/religion problem but local racism. Meaning, in some areas in the South, racism is still alive and well. |
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#35 |
Blue Crack Supplier
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Guys, it's just their belief, ok? Why do we all have to think in exactly the same way? Some tolerance for diversity and the marketplace of ideas would be appreciated by people who demand the same.
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#36 |
Blue Crack Distributor
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Pretty much.
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#37 |
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The current head of the denomination is black; wonder what he'll have to say about this.
__________________What an appalling lack of leadership from that pastor, to disagree in the press with this "small minority" of congregants, yet give in and move the ceremony to another church. So what if they do "vote you out" (though I find that hard to believe if it's a small minority)? Your moral leadership's not worth much if you're not willing to stand up to that, in which case why are you a pastor at all. And if it's not a small minority then maybe that's not a congregation you want to be serving. |
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