Israel

[the iron horse]

"Today, non-Jewish citizens of Israel constitute about 25% of the population, with 20% being Arabs. Arab Israelis have equal voting rights and their own political parties, serve on the Israeli Knesset, Cabinet, and Supreme Court; hold diplomatic positions; actively participate in the Israeli music and arts scene; and represent Israel on the national soccer team, including winning the Israeli national championship. They are granted all fundamental civil liberties, including freedoms of religion, speech, and assembly, and in fact enjoy more civil rights than Arabs living in any other Middle Eastern country. Israel is also the only country in the Middle East where Arab homosexuals can live without fear of prosecution, which is why many Palestinian gays have fled for Israel."

http://arabisraeliconflict.info/arab...raeli-citizens

[digitize]

I sure as hell wouldn't want to live anywhere in the Middle East that isn't Israel.

I'm not sure how I feel about the current mess, though. On one hand, there's Hamas, with whom I can actually somewhat sympathize, in the same way I can sympathize with any colonized people sick of their colonizer. But what the colonized would replace the colony with disgusts me. And Hamas has show total disregard for human life, even for Palestinians. I can also sympathize with the Israelis, but I'm not sure that this offensive does more short term benefit (removing Hamas targets) than long term harm (creating a ton of hatred towards Israel).

But the people of Gaza lose, no matter who is "right". It's awful.


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[prbiker15]

Originally Posted by digitize

I sure as hell wouldn't want to live anywhere in the Middle East that isn't Israel.

I'm not sure how I feel about the current mess, though. On one hand, there's Hamas, with whom I can actually somewhat sympathize, in the same way I can sympathize with any colonized people sick of their colonizer. But what the colonized would replace the colony with disgusts me. And Hamas has show total disregard for human life, even for Palestinians. I can also sympathize with the Israelis, but I'm not sure that this offensive does more short term benefit (removing Hamas targets) than long term harm (creating a ton of hatred towards Israel).

But the people of Gaza lose, no matter who is "right". It's awful.


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I feel the same way. I just wish they would go ahead with a ceasefire, even if this sort of conflict has been going on for decades.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

"Today, non-Jewish citizens of Israel constitute about 25% of the population, with 20% being Arabs. Arab Israelis have equal voting rights and their own political parties, serve on the Israeli Knesset, Cabinet, and Supreme Court; hold diplomatic positions; actively participate in the Israeli music and arts scene; and represent Israel on the national soccer team, including winning the Israeli national championship. They are granted all fundamental civil liberties, including freedoms of religion, speech, and assembly, and in fact enjoy more civil rights than Arabs living in any other Middle Eastern country. Israel is also the only country in the Middle East where Arab homosexuals can live without fear of prosecution, which is why many Palestinian gays have fled for Israel."



http://arabisraeliconflict.info/arab...raeli-citizens

I'm glad you beiieve that acceptance and protection of gay people is a non-negotiable value of any modern, secular society.

There is much to admire about Israel. And there is much to criticize, not least of which is that it's policies make their citizens less safe in the long run. It's been nearly 50 years since 1967. Has occupation really been good for anybody?


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[Vlad n U 2]

I'm reminded of that long winded other Israel thread where it was that one Israeli user arguing back and forth against others.

FWIW, I can't see how anybody who deems themselves as even mildly progressive could support Israel's actions, regardless of Hamas exist or no Hamas.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

FWIW, I can't see how anybody who deems themselves as even mildly progressive could support Israel's actions, regardless of Hamas exist or no Hamas.

what course of action should Israel take?

i know that "end the occupation" is the easiest answer, but given how complex that would be, how should Israel respond to rocket attacks?

i find this situation genuinely perplexing, so i'm curious to hear any perspective.

[digitize]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what course of action should Israel take?



i know that "end the occupation" is the easiest answer, but given how complex that would be, how should Israel respond to rocket attacks?



i find this situation genuinely perplexing, so i'm curious to hear any perspective.

I often hear "Israel should dismantle itself" as a final answer to these questions.


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[anitram]

A legitimate question to be asked these days is whether the oft-repeated "two state solution" is even possible anymore.

I don't believe that it is. Not geographically, and certainly not following settlement expansion in the last 10-20 years. It is no longer a practicable solution.

So what remains?

The situation on the ground right now is that Gaza is a genuine bantustan.

[Kieran McConville]

If settlement is such that that (above) is true, then the only long term solution is Israeli citizenship and elected representatives in the Knesset. I'd love to see how that plays.

[PhilsFan]

There is no solution. There may be an end to the conflict, but there is no solution.

[Kieran McConville]

Solution may be the wrong choice of word, sure.

[deep]

could be the right word. the Zionists have a final solution for the Palestinians,

[Axver]

How did I know there was a "final solution" gag coming...

[deep]

Gaza is not much better than a prison camp

the only way out of a camp is in a box or a tunnel


Israeli policy is to keep them caged in and every few years go in a slaughter a few hundred, they call it 'mowing the lawn'.



The Gaza invasion is about 'mowing the grass'

What does Israel want out of the Gaza offensive? - Vox

Israelis ponder alternatives to 'mowing the lawn' in Gaza (+video) - CSMonitor.com

[anitram]

Originally Posted by deep

Gaza is not much better than a prison camp

It is a genuine bantustan. Nothing less.

[deep]

Originally Posted by digitize

I sure as hell wouldn't want to live anywhere in the Middle East that isn't Israel.

The disturbing thing about your statement is that you or I could live in Israel.

All we would have to do is convert and immigrate. We could even get good housing in a settlement on land stolen from Palestinians that have been there for hundreds of years. They are removed from their homes and put behind barricades while non-middle eastern people are invited in by Israel to take over their property.

[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by deep

The disturbing thing about your statement is that you or I could live in Israel.

All we would have to do is convert and immigrate. We could even get good housing in a settlement on land stolen from Palestinians that have been there for hundreds of years. They are removed from their homes and put behind barricades while non-middle eastern people are invited in by Israel to take over their property.

Stolen land?

I don't know of any other people in history who have a more
legitimate claim to a strip of land than the Jews.

Also, there has never been a state called Palestine.

[PhilsFan]

American Schools vs. the World: Expensive, Unequal, Bad at Math - Julia Ryan - The Atlantic

[Kieran McConville]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

Stolen land?

I don't know of any other people in history who have a more
legitimate claim to a strip of land than the Jews.

Also, there has never been a state called Palestine.

So what? Nor, prior to the nineteenth century were there states called "Greece" (well, technically there still isn't but we won't get into that) or "Italy". Yet I'm sure we can agree that there were Greeks and Italians.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I don't know of any other people in history who have a more
legitimate claim to a strip of land than the Jews.

Sure, if you think that some book written millenia ago = a "legitimate" claim to a strip of land.

God forbid this was the basis of international law.