Israel

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Hollow Island

...and the media portrays them as a victim.

I've been watching BBC News quite a bit lately; they have been taking what seems to be a pro-Palestinian stance on the whole thing (not overtly, but rather with a lot of attention to the toll the raids have taken on Gaza's population), which stands in stark contrast to US coverage.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

This is an interesting read, but I have trouble with the idea that one has to be aware and critical of all global human rights abuses in order justifiably to criticize Israel.

Yep, and I had a serious problem with the parts of Schwartz's letter that implied as much (though most of the rest of the exchange between him and Eno was a good read). I think this article - written over two years ago - captures my perspective nicely: Impossible vanity of caring for everything at once

[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

really? i find it the opposite -- does Brian Eno write letters about Putin and Chechnya?

Well it's an interesting point isn't it. Haven't seen Roger Waters do any stage shows criticising the above, or ISIS, either.

To me, the obsessive interest from some Europeans in any conflict involving Israel, and almost always taking a fervently anti-Israeli position, is not explainable rationally. Psycho-analytically, maybe.

Reportedly 1,000 killed in Iraq today by ISIS, I go on internet forums to comment on Israel-Gaza threads (I don't mean this forum) to point this out (& I was against Iraq war from day 1, for the record) and I'm accused of being in the payroll of Mossad by the pro-Hamas, sorry I mean, pro-Gaza chorus. Fucking hell.

[Irvine511]

I do think there's an intellectual fascination with this crisis -- it is so complex, and has been a dominant ongoing storyline for most of my life (in mid-30s). That may be part of the attention.


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[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I do think there's an intellectual fascination with this crisis -- it is so complex, and has been a dominant ongoing storyline for most of my life (in mid-30s). That may be part of the attention.


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Is part of it that Israel is viewed as part of the "Western world" (they're in the Eurovision song contest, somewhat implausibly) and "expected" to uphold higher standards than Islamic world? This is a country that has imprisoned a former president on sex abuse charges - there are not too many countries where such a high level figure can be brought to account for such offences, whatever other criticisms can be made about Israel. Christ, in the UK they only now getting around to (maybe) charging politicians with abuse crimes from decades ago.

[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Well it's an interesting point isn't it. Haven't seen Roger Waters do any stage shows criticising the above, or ISIS, either.

To me, the obsessive interest from some Europeans in any conflict involving Israel, and almost always taking a fervently anti-Israeli position, is not explainable rationally. Psycho-analytically, maybe.

Reportedly 1,000 killed in Iraq today by ISIS, I go on internet forums to comment on Israel-Gaza threads (I don't mean this forum) to point this out (& I was against Iraq war from day 1, for the record) and I'm accused of being in the payroll of Mossad by the pro-Hamas, sorry I mean, pro-Gaza chorus. Fucking hell.

Concerning Roger Waters and those who support the boycott
of performing in Israel.


I'm glad that some like Gene Simmons have spoken out against it and
the artists who continue to perform there.



from: *Advertisement

"Kiss' Israeli-born lead singer Gene Simmons shouted out on Tuesday at the string of musicians who have refused to perform in Israel, saying they were fools.

The legendary bassist spoke to The Associated Press in Jerusalem on Tuesday, after he arrived in Israel for what he described as an emotional homecoming.

"I'm Israeli. I'm a stranger in America. I'm an outsider," he said, speaking in a hotel lobby across a valley from the walls of Jerusalem's historic Old City. "I was born here and I'm proud of it."

He said artists who avoid Israel - such as Elvis Costello, the Pixies and Roger Waters, who joined the movement after appearing in Israel in 2006 - would be better served directing their anger at Arab dictators."

[Irvine511]

Other than the cultural superiority of Israel, what other thoughts do you have on this particular topic?


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[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Other than the cultural superiority of Israel, what other thoughts do you have on this particular topic?


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If you are asking me the question, I would reply that in order to
help understand the present situation, one needs to read and study the
history of the region.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

If you are asking me the question, I would reply that in order to

help understand the present situation, one needs to read and study the

history of the region.

Ok. And?


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[Jacobite]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Ok. And?


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Do you have any view on the point made by Gene Simmons when he said that "artists who avoid Israel - such as Elvis Costello, the Pixies and Roger Waters, who joined the movement after appearing in Israel in 2006 - would be better served directing their anger at Arab dictators."

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Jacobite

Do you have any view on the point made by Gene Simmons when he said that "artists who avoid Israel - such as Elvis Costello, the Pixies and Roger Waters, who joined the movement after appearing in Israel in 2006 - would be better served directing their anger at Arab dictators."

I don't think it's an either/or situation.

There is plenty of opprobrium to be passed around.

My worry is that, since the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in the early 1980s, history has made an actual solution impossible. I don't think 1948 or 1967 or 3000 years ago matters much. What matters are the recent images of children ripped to bits by bombs in Gaza or children set afire on a bus in Tel Aviv. The two "sides" have radicalized each other perhaps past the point of no return.


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[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I don't think it's an either/or situation.

There is plenty of opprobrium to be passed around.

My worry is that, since the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in the early 1980s, history has made an actual solution impossible. I don't think 1948 or 1967 or 3000 years ago matters much. What matters are the recent images of children ripped to bits by bombs in Gaza or children set afire on a bus in Tel Aviv. The two "sides" have radicalized each other perhaps past the point of no return.


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I don't believe the reality and facts support the claim of
Hamas (and other Islamic terrorist) moral equivalency to Israel.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I don't believe the reality and facts support the claim of
Hamas (and other Islamic terrorist) moral equivalency to Israel.

does Israel's moral superiority to Hamas give it the right to kill civilians -- wildly disproportionate numbers to the amount of IDF forces or Israeli citizens -- and does this one-sided slaughter reduce any of this moral superiority?

[kidrambler]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I don't believe the reality and facts support the claim of
Hamas (and other Islamic terrorist) moral equivalency to Israel.

I agree. Hamas actually uses the carnage to gain the media's sympathy and win the PR war. There is only less carnage on Israel's side because they care enough about the lives of their citizens to actually defend them. Hamas sacrifices Palestinian lives to achieve their objective. I'd call that moral opposites.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by kidrambler

I agree. Hamas actually uses the carnage to gain the media's sympathy and win the PR war. There is only less carnage on Israel's side because they care enough about the lives of their citizens to actually defend them. Hamas sacrifices Palestinian lives to achieve their objective. I'd call that moral opposites.

i agree.

but Israel plays directly into their hands and does exactly what they want them to do, every time.

[kidrambler]

You would think Israel would have learned by now not to take the bait. "Fear acts as a retraint against perfect love." They can't win this battle indefinitely.

[kidrambler]

There is no way out of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It breaks my heart for Israel's sake. It is a bitter-sweet reality. Either Israel enters into a multi-state resolution with her sworn enemy or the current situation continues, with her enemy gaining strength each time until "the words of god will have been accomplished." Either way, the beginning of the end will be when the "disgusting thing causing desolation stands in the holy place and the temple fortress gets removed" and the physical state of Israel will come to an end, though god will not forsake his chosen ones entirely because god is faithful even when his people are not. There is no way out of this inevitability. The very kings with whom Israel is trusting to have her back will look away as they currently proceed to arm the very ones who seek Israel's annihilation. There is a famous quote, from whom I don't presently recall, which aptly expresses that nations don't have friends, they have interests. "The love of money is the root of all evil." The love of wealth, indeed the wealth of the world, causes kings to dance with nations in distress in order to subjugate their resources and their peoples. Because their quest to control all the wealth is advancing, their first love--Israel-- who was a loyal partner to them in exchange for her own protection, is increasingly looking old and haggard. They will sincerely mourn her death, but they won't stop it, because they do not worship Israel's god--her god which she herself has forsaken. "The stumbling blocks must come, but woe to those through whom they come." It's a Catch 22 for all sides, and all that has been foretold will come to pass. All the kings of the earth will reap according to the way they have sown. There is no escaping it for anyone. There is No--Way--Out.

[youarenotimmune]

Israel has been using the Samson Option for decades now. The world has mostly turned a blind eye to IDF's insanely disproportionate response to Hamas' rockets until now; partly due to Holocaust induced guilt, partly due to Israeli/Jewish global influence and power, and the rest because no one gives a shit about the plight of the Palestinians (least of all the rest of the global muslim community). The only reason there's been some outrage over what's happening right now is because of Israel's slaughtering of children, and how social media today enables the broadcast of those harrowing images across the globe.

When general Moshe Dayan said, 'Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.', he really meant it.

[kidrambler]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i agree.

but Israel plays directly into their hands and does exactly what they want them to do, every time.

Yes. And so does the U.S. I said this when GWBush retaliated after 9/11; now President Obama is taking the bait.
We will not win this fight either, because our motive isn't justice or humanitarianism, that's just our excuse. Here we go again.

[the iron horse]

"Neighbors are on edge after a swastika was painted at a nearby synagogue.
Police said they do not believe the murder of the rabbi was a hate crime, but many neighbors feel differently."

New York rabbi shot and killed in Miami en route to synagogue - CBS News