Is Offensive Political Violence Ever Justified?

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by anitram

Oh the Israeli policy regarding protesters!

Great idea. It's such a utopia over there.

I think every country should adopt the 'put a 10 year old child in jail because they resist your occupation' policy to be honest. Truly a great democracy.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

Originally Posted by bloodysunday972

The protesters threw rocks......You know they can kill you right?

Israel for example has adopted a policy of they will shoot protesters throwing rocks and rightfully so. A rock is a weapon and Israeli soldiers have been severely hurt and even killed from rocks being thrown by Palestinian protesters.

I'd like to see an example of a rock thrown by a 19 year old poli-sci major killing someone in full riot gear.

Not that I condone the rock throwing. It has no place, and if you throw a rock at a police officer you should be arrested and prosecuted.

But... yea; they shouldn't open fire on protesters hurling rocks.

Smoke? Flashbangs? Even rubber bullets? OK.

Live ammo? Are you nuts?

[Caleb8844]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Fairly sure that guy was a neo-nazi.

Why is that man likely to be a neo-Nazi?

This, I believe, is the slope in action. While it's somewhat possible to reasonably characterize Richard Spencer as a neo-Nazi (I think white nationalist is more accurate, but semantics), it's actually pretty difficult to make any reasonable argument that Milo Yiannopolous is a neo-Nazi. What's more, it's even *harder* to make the argument that every member of his audience is a neo-Nazi.

But hey, some guy got beat unconscious by leftist protesters, and they're by definition the good guys. Since they're the good guys, they can't have been mindlessly assaulting people...well, he had to have been a neo-Nazi, then. And if it's okay to punch a neo-Nazi, it's okay to beat them unconscious, too - I mean, what's the difference?


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[Oregoropa]

Everybody can be a Nazi in 2017. All you have have to do is say something a phrase, song, anything . . . And you too can be called a Nazi.




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[BVS]

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

Why is that man likely to be a neo-Nazi?

This, I believe, is the slope in action. While it's somewhat possible to reasonably characterize Richard Spencer as a neo-Nazi (I think white nationalist is more accurate, but semantics), it's actually pretty difficult to make any reasonable argument that Milo Yiannopolous is a neo-Nazi. What's more, it's even *harder* to make the argument that every member of his audience is a neo-Nazi.

But hey, some guy got beat unconscious by leftist protesters, and they're by definition the good guys. Since they're the good guys, they can't have been mindlessly assaulting people...well, he had to have been a neo-Nazi, then. And if it's okay to punch a neo-Nazi, it's okay to beat them unconscious, too - I mean, what's the difference?


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defensive much?

i don't think that's what vlad was saying at all - (correct me if i'm wrong vlad) he's saying he is fairly sure that man is an *actual* neo-nazi. they actually do exist in the real world. i'm not sure how he knows that but it's certainly possible the man could have been identified somewhere on the internet (reddit just loves to do that sort of thing).

but you just had to go into a knee-jerk, totally-not-projecting-you-guys defensive rant about leftists and labels i guess.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Everybody can be a Nazi in 2017. All you have have to do is say something a phrase, song, anything . . . And you too can be called a Nazi.

If 2016 was the year of 'splainin,

2017's shaping up so far to be the year of 'omg nazis!!!'

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

And if it's okay to punch a neo-Nazi, it's okay to beat them unconscious, too - I mean, what's the difference?

You can at least pepper spray them, like at Berkeley last week!

[Caleb8844]

Originally Posted by DaveC

defensive much?



i don't think that's what vlad was saying at all - (correct me if i'm wrong vlad) he's saying he is fairly sure that man is an *actual* neo-nazi. they actually do exist in the real world. i'm not sure how he knows that but it's certainly possible the man could have been identified somewhere on the internet (reddit just loves to do that sort of thing).



but you just had to go into a knee-jerk, totally-not-projecting-you-guys defensive rant about leftists and labels i guess.

I legitimately don't understand your point.

My point isn't really contingent on that guy being or not being a neo-Nazi in your opinion.

If your defense is that it's okay because he literally is a neo-Nazi, then you're just agreeing with me that we've now escalated from, "yes, it's okay to punch a Nazi," to "well, I suppose it's also okay to beat them unconscious, since they're a Nazi and whatnot."

What am I misunderstanding?

Also, what am I possibly projecting, here? I'm projecting the idea on others that they want to justify political violence because I secretly want to justify political violence? That's the argument you want to stand behind?

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[Headache in a Suitcase]

I think would say that it's always OK to punch a Nazi.

You may suffer the consequences yourself, but I imagine it would be worth it.

[nbelcik]

America was built on political violence. It's interesting to me that conservatives will celebrate the Boston Tea Party and then bitch when windows are broken during a protest.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Caleb8844

Why is that man likely to be a neo-Nazi?

This, I believe, is the slope in action. While it's somewhat possible to reasonably characterize Richard Spencer as a neo-Nazi (I think white nationalist is more accurate, but semantics), it's actually pretty difficult to make any reasonable argument that Milo Yiannopolous is a neo-Nazi. What's more, it's even *harder* to make the argument that every member of his audience is a neo-Nazi.

But hey, some guy got beat unconscious by leftist protesters, and they're by definition the good guys. Since they're the good guys, they can't have been mindlessly assaulting people...well, he had to have been a neo-Nazi, then. And if it's okay to punch a neo-Nazi, it's okay to beat them unconscious, too - I mean, what's the difference?


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Milo's a colossal wanker, but he's not a Nazi, and Nazis probably despise him.

It's definitely good to punch Nazis too, by the way.

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Everybody can be a Nazi in 2017. All you have have to do is say something a phrase, song, anything . . . And you too can be called a Nazi.




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You're a buffoon.

Originally Posted by DaveC

defensive much?

i don't think that's what vlad was saying at all - (correct me if i'm wrong vlad) he's saying he is fairly sure that man is an *actual* neo-nazi. they actually do exist in the real world. i'm not sure how he knows that but it's certainly possible the man could have been identified somewhere on the internet (reddit just loves to do that sort of thing).

but you just had to go into a knee-jerk, totally-not-projecting-you-guys defensive rant about leftists and labels i guess.

I was indeed saying that, thanks Dave. That was from reports from people who were there.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

Everybody can be a Nazi in 2017. All you have have to do is say something a phrase, song, anything . . . And you too can be called a Nazi.

What exactly do you think white supremacy is?

[PhilsFan]

Also, nothing about any of this has to do with free speech. The First Amendment is about government interference in speech. It doesn't mean you must be given any platform you demand. So throw those arguments away immediately.

[Caleb8844]

No one's been making that argument on this front for many, many moons.

The fact that the government's commitment to free speech is codified doesn't take away from the fact that free speech is a foundational social concept, as well.

That said, Berkeley is indeed a state university, so in this particular case, one could make that argument if one wanted to


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[Hollow Island]

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

I think would say that it's always OK to punch a Nazi.

You may suffer the consequences yourself, but I imagine it would be worth it.

Yes, for fuck's sake, yes! If it's not OK to punch a Nazi then it's not OK to punch anyone.

This liberal handwringing of "oh maybe we shouldn't be hitting neo-nazis and white power activists!" is moronic. Of course they should be hit! They can't be reasoned with and they spread the most vile kinds of hate. Fuck treating them like they're just people with another viewpoint. They're scum and anyone who defends them can fuck right off, hopefully into someone's fist.

Sure, hitting them doesn't solve anything but who cares? It sends a message and it makes everyone feel good. Sometimes people need to be hit.

It's also worth noting that it's common in protests for the police to send in agent provocateur dressed as "Black Bloc," and that it's possible that Breitbart/Milo sent them in, as per Robert Reich's plausible theory.

Robert Reich: Who Sent the Thugs to Berkeley?

[Hollow Island]

also, vandalism isn't violence. smashing a starbucks window, as pointless as it is, is not equivalent to smashing someone's face. it bothers me that property owned by corporations (that they probably have insurance for? - someone here would probably know for sure, and I'm curious) has been elevated to the same status as a human being.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by Hollow Island

This liberal handwringing of "oh maybe we shouldn't be hitting neo-nazis and white power activists!" is moronic. Of course they should be hit! They can't be reasoned with and they spread the most vile kinds of hate. Fuck treating them like they're just people with another viewpoint. They're scum and anyone who defends them can fuck right off, hopefully into someone's fist.

Interestingly it seems to be the conservative posters here who are most concerned about punching Nazis.

[Hollow Island]

yeah, they would be. I understand why they don't think their side should be punched. They're wrong, but I get it. It's the liberals who have been whining about it that get be riled!

btw remember when that guy was shot at a Milo event a couple weeks ago and all the right wing whining about political violence? Me neither

[Moonlit_Angel]

I just like that conservatives (speaking in general terms here) who get all bent out of shape over the very thought of any sort of gun control are daring to complain about other people behaving violently.

I generally don't support violence, simply because, while it might shock people and bring some attention, it generally won't be the sort of attention those who are protesting would like. And even if people are simply vandalizing businesses, the fact remains that any innocent people who work in or shopping in them, or even just walking anywhere near them, could risk getting hurt in the melee. If I were working at a store, I wouldn't exactly appreciate a brick narrowly missing my head as it flew through the window, or the risk of getting cut by broken glass. I think non-violent protest is always the best way to go, and that violence should only be a last resort, and generally done in self-defense.

That said, however, yeah, I'm not exactly shedding tears over that Nazi being punched, no. And conservatives tsk-tsking this violence while remaining silent about things like abortion clinic bombings, or militia members planning armed protests if Hillary won the election, or politicians making "jokes" about "Second Amendment solutions" in relation to Obama and Hillary, and, as noted above, refusing to support any sort of gun control, is kind of laughable.