Is Offensive Political Violence Ever Justified? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-24-2017, 07:30 PM   #21
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
see, that's what i never can get my head round, how the US doesn't make a distinction between free speech and hate speech - here in France we have very strong laws against hate speech, i.e. inspiring racial hatred for instance, it's a prosecutable offence, and i really can't see that that's a bad thing - some things should be recognised as being unacceptable and having no place in society

I just don't see how one can draw that line though without making it completely exploitable?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
__________________

BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2017, 11:34 PM   #22
Blue Crack Supplier
 
IWasBored's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 36,783
Local Time: 11:33 AM
A guy from various Boston punk bands that i am a fan of got his social media blown the fuck up by neo nazis threatening him the past few days wrongly accusing him of being the puncher.
__________________

IWasBored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 05:56 AM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I just don't see how one can draw that line though without making it completely exploitable?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
you just have to have laws specifically defining what "hate speech" is

it's been a cultural eye-opener for me living in France, learning what kind of things are perceived as acceptable or unacceptable to say... i can only see it as a positive thing...
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 06:12 AM   #24
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 66,288
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregoropa View Post
The Limo that was torched by protestors in DC belonged to a Muslim immigrant to use a business. Ironic outcome.
Please explain why this is ironic...
Headache in a Suitcase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 08:51 AM   #25
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,730
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I just don't see how one can draw that line though without making it completely exploitable?
Well plenty of comparable western democracies do it without much fanfare so it's obviously possible.
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 09:08 AM   #26
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
Well plenty of comparable western democracies do it without much fanfare so it's obviously possible.

I just see our politicians(both sides) completely abusing it, but maybe I'm just not familiar with how these laws are written.

So Cass mentioned if it "incites violence"; so there was a story months ago about 2 men attacking random Hispanics and claiming Trump inspired them, would that be grounds to go after Trump?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 09:21 AM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,730
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
So Cass mentioned if it "incites violence"; so there was a story months ago about 2 men attacking random Hispanics and claiming Trump inspired them, would that be grounds to go after Trump?
I can only speak for Canadian law, but no, this would not meet the threshold. The threshold is very high, and the prosecution must pass something like a 7-prong test before a case even becomes prosecutable.

In the Canadian instance, there would be many issues. Number one, Trump did not clearly target an identifiable group for violence (saying that he wants to deport Mexicans or that they are rapists does not incite violence against an identifiable group). The other thing is you have to make a deliberate statement of hate speech, not one that is careless or off-the-cuff which basically would get him off in the majority of instances. Oh in the heat of the moment, he said something stupid in a rally, etc. There are other reasons as well.
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 09:23 AM   #28
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,228
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I can only speak for Canadian law, but no, this would not meet the threshold. The threshold is very high, and the prosecution must pass something like a 7-prong test before a case even becomes prosecutable.



In the Canadian instance, there would be many issues. Number one, Trump did not clearly target an identifiable group for violence (saying that he wants to deport Mexicans or that they are rapists does not incite violence against an identifiable group). The other thing is you have to make a deliberate statement of hate speech, not one that is careless or off-the-cuff which basically would get him off in the majority of instances. Oh in the heat of the moment, he said something stupid in a rally, etc. There are other reasons as well.

Gotcha, thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 10:05 AM   #29
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Stateless
Posts: 66,288
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I can only speak for Canadian law, but no, this would not meet the threshold. The threshold is very high, and the prosecution must pass something like a 7-prong test before a case even becomes prosecutable.

In the Canadian instance, there would be many issues. Number one, Trump did not clearly target an identifiable group for violence (saying that he wants to deport Mexicans or that they are rapists does not incite violence against an identifiable group). The other thing is you have to make a deliberate statement of hate speech, not one that is careless or off-the-cuff which basically would get him off in the majority of instances. Oh in the heat of the moment, he said something stupid in a rally, etc. There are other reasons as well.
So Richard Spencer would be in jail, eh?
Headache in a Suitcase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2017, 11:43 AM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I just don't see how one can draw that line though without making it completely exploitable?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
here is an example, just this second popped up in my news feed:

Henry de Lesquen condamné pour des propos racistes - Libération

quick summary:
An avowed extreme-right racist has just been sentenced to a fine of 16,000 euros for incitement to hatred and denying crimes against humanity. Prosecutors requested a six-month suspended sentence and a fine of 15,000 euros. He was prosecuted for racist and revisionist comments published on his website and Twitter account

that's how we roll here
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 10:29 AM   #31
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,060
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama cass View Post
here is an example, just this second popped up in my news feed:



Henry de Lesquen condamné pour des propos racistes - Libération



quick summary:

An avowed extreme-right racist has just been sentenced to a fine of 16,000 euros for incitement to hatred and denying crimes against humanity. Prosecutors requested a six-month suspended sentence and a fine of 15,000 euros. He was prosecuted for racist and revisionist comments published on his website and Twitter account



that's how we roll here




In the US we have hate crimes laws that do cover, I believe, some kids of hate speech. For example, if you were to spray paint "Kill All Muslims" on a wall, that could receive harsher punishment than if you had spray painted "Kill Bill Jones" since the targeting of a wide but clearly defined group terrorizes many people and not just one. Hate crimes, I believe, vary from state to state, and they beg some questions -- who belongs to a class that would be protected from this kind of language? What groups qualify for such a status (not all states are going to agree that LGBT should qualify, and threatening statements are just a means of religious expression and thus protected by law)?

Of course, I'm no lawyer or expert and this is just off the top of my head.
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 12:56 PM   #32
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: mar-a-lago delenda est
Posts: 21,319
Local Time: 10:33 AM

The 'punch a Nazi' meme: what are the ethics of punching Nazis? - The Guardian
DaveC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2017, 03:12 AM   #33
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
mama cass's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,293
Local Time: 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
In the US we have hate crimes laws that do cover, I believe, some kids of hate speech. For example, if you were to spray paint "Kill All Muslims" on a wall, that could receive harsher punishment than if you had spray painted "Kill Bill Jones" since the targeting of a wide but clearly defined group terrorizes many people and not just one. Hate crimes, I believe, vary from state to state, and they beg some questions -- who belongs to a class that would be protected from this kind of language? What groups qualify for such a status (not all states are going to agree that LGBT should qualify, and threatening statements are just a means of religious expression and thus protected by law)?

Of course, I'm no lawyer or expert and this is just off the top of my head.
Irvine, in France i believe that it applies to all individuals because it is very wide-ranging, i.e. to protect against defamation, to protect a person's dignity, privacy, etc... for instance, verbally abusing someone on the street, in public, is a punishable offence, even things like insulting someone, calling them crazy is dodgy as it can be taken to be undermining to their personal dignity... basically freedom of speech but not without limits, with the aim of protecting individuals and communities, and the social order in general... i find it really interesting...

obviously enforcing it is another matter, but i guess it's nice to know that there is a kind of safety net - maybe it makes people think twice before opening their mouths... not a bad thing these days lol
mama cass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 05:17 PM   #34
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,095
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Berkeley cancels Milo Yiannopoulos talk after violent protests - CNN.com
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 05:36 PM   #35
War Child
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 675
Local Time: 03:33 PM
No its not because where is the line? Justified by who? The one committing it?
bloodysunday972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 05:39 PM   #36
War Child
 
Caleb8844's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 662
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Is Milo Yiannopolous a Nazi, as well?

Are all members of his collegiate audiences Nazis, as well?

Or is it, perhaps, that when we grant people the moral high ground for punching "Nazis," we create a motivational structure in which people are more tempted to label their political opponents Nazis, thereby justifying violent responses to them?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
Caleb8844 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 05:51 PM   #37
War Child
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Western Slope, Colorado
Posts: 675
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb8844 View Post
Is Milo Yiannopolous a Nazi, as well?

Are all members of his collegiate audiences Nazis, as well?

Or is it, perhaps, that when we grant people the moral high ground for punching "Nazis," we create a motivational structure in which people are more tempted to label their political opponents Nazis, thereby justifying violent responses to them?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
Indeed.
bloodysunday972 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 06:01 PM   #38
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,095
Local Time: 10:33 AM
Quote:
Black-clad protesters wearing masks threw commercial-grade fireworks and rocks at police. Some even hurled Molotov cocktails that ignited fires. They also smashed windows of the student union center on the Berkeley campus where the Yiannopoulos event was to be held.
Quote:
The violent protesters tore down metal barriers, set fires near the campus bookstore and damaged the construction site of a new dorm. One woman wearing a red Trump hat was pepper sprayed in the face while being interviewed by CNN affiliate KGO.
Quote:
As police dispersed the crowd from campus, a remaining group of protesters moved into downtown Berkeley and smashed windows at several local banks.
No arrests were made throughout the night.
^ unjustified political violence
Bluer White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 06:01 PM   #39
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,357
Local Time: 02:03 AM
Good. Nicely done.
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2017, 06:04 PM   #40
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 08:33 AM
"black clad protesters wearing masks"? Sounds like those "Black Bloc" assholes who call themselves "anarchists," show up to a protest and start shit, while the protesters just want to protest peacefully.

Signed, Seattle resident who has seen what happens when these chuckleheads show up to "protest"
__________________

corianderstem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×