Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

Nobody here is uncomfortable talking about it. If that's going to be the line you continually hide behind, we're not going to get very far.

 

[jeevey]

The ball is sitting right there. I'd love to go ahead and have the discussion. That's the sincere request, not snarky one.

 

[Jive Turkey]

hahaha good call back.

I agree with that statement... now what?

 

[Galeongirl]

Why would it be difficult for women to talk about and difficult for men to hear? We're here to discuss things, so if people aren't interested in hearing it, they won't be going here. Why bother discriminating that it's just the men that dont' want to hear? That's sexist IMO. Why keep splitting men and women in these cases if you want them to be equal.

You even asked a couple women to come here to discuss, but sorry I don't quite get why. You are so biased against men and black and white, what's the point of discussing anything? It's not going to change your mind because it's already set. I'm siding with the men on this one.

 

[LJT]

And the meta issues really are here to be examined. This is the root of the feminist issue again, quoted from above. We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men. No one wants to pick that ball up.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement here. I don't really think there is any argument to be had about whether as men, we have benefited from that power imbalance for a long, long time, i'm just not sure what you want all us men to do about it?

The only things I can think of is to call out any sexism we see in a day to day lives, whether in others and in ourselves. Treat our gf's, daughters, wives in an equitable way to ensure they have the best chances to be whatever they want to be. Many of us here already do this. Benefiting from this sexist culture does not make us complicit in it, when many of us already take stands against sexism in our everyday lives.

 

[Pearl]

Why would it be difficult for women to talk about and difficult for men to hear?

In my opinion - and I'm not speaking for jeevey here - some men really are unable to discuss sexism or misogyny because they are proud in their bias against women. Or just plain immature guys who probably have trouble getting a date. Those guys we can try to ignore, even if they leave us fuming.

I think another reason why men are unable to discuss sexism is because there is some bias against men in society, particularly in family legal courts where the mother gets full custody of the kids even though she's not a good mother and likely smeared her ex-husband so bad he's unable to see his kids. I think the fact that some women are unwilling to address where we abuse our position upsets men.

And finally, some guys just believe in gender roles, particularly when it comes to sexual history. You know how it is, the guy can sleep with 100 women with no problem. But if he meets an interesting woman who's had sex with the same amount of men, that's a huge turn-off because he doesn't want to think that every guy in town has been with her.

As for women being uncomfortable talking about sexism, my guess is that is because some feminists turned the women's movement into a man-bashing movement hell bent on misandry. Most women don't hate men, and would want to have satisfying relationships with them as husbands or boyfriends. The idea that some feminists present is that the only way to be a feminist is to be biased against men turns a lot of women off. Actually, it was mentioned in the beginning of this thread that some women don't identify as feminists probably for this very reason.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I'm sorry my last quote came off as patronizing. I thought it was appropriate because several men on this thread have in fact expressed anger at being implicated in a system that oppresses women, and examples of reverse sexism (I know a boss who doesn't like men, there exists a small percentage of men who experience domestic violence and such) have certainly been used on this thread to minimize the complexity, size, and the personal aspect of our problem.

We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men-- that's the fundamental claim of feminism. Is it bogus?

i basically agree w all this being said....


yes there has been improvement but at the same time you have people in the usa who STILL want to take the vote away from women ( just as they're making it harder for poor, people of color, disabled, elders ....)

we're still in the upper 70% on pay and all other manner of obvious and subtle air you breath type sexism


not enough time to post more

later

 

[Jive Turkey]

at the same time you have people in the usa who STILL want to take the vote away from women

Who are these people? Can you link us to some info on them? What percentage of the population do they make up?
This is a boogeyman argument.

 

[Pearl]

yes there has been improvement but at the same time you have people in the usa who STILL want to take the vote away from women

Haven't heard of any news about this. Maybe a few internet trolls have said this, but other than that, sounds like a conspiracy theory.

 

[Irvine511]

Who are these people? Can you link us to some info on them? What percentage of the population do they make up?
This is a boogeyman argument.

At first I thought this was crazy -- people who want to take the vote away from women?

However, in a political context, women, especially single women, vote heavily democratic. Given the GOP's clear, concerted effort to stop black people from voting, it would make sense that they might try to do the same with women.

Though I cant point to any organized effort that I'm aware of.

 

[jeevey]

As it happens, I have a neighbor who does not support suffrage for women. He's part of a very conservative religious movement called Biblical Patriarchy which is gathering a surprising amount of momentum. Politically speaking, they're most closely represented by the tea party although even that is too liberal for them.

In my own life I find that it's difficult for men and women to talk together about how sexism or the patriarchy influences our individual choices. We'd rather think that it's just circumstances, rather than cultural attitudes that push us in the direction we go. Here's an example from my own house.

My husband is not a sexist guy in any overtly identifiable way. He deeply intuitive and emotional, prefers the company of women to men and is not at all invested in traditional masculinity. However, he does have an unconscious assumption that unpleasant parenting work is easier for me than for him, whether it's stinky diapers or nighttime parenting. I didn't get any special diaper changing or baby soothing lessons when our kids were born. There's no reason why waking up to tend a baby is easier for me than him. But he tends to assume that these tasks will be done by me unless I specifically request otherwise. And when I do he frequently plays dumb, asking for so much help in carrying out the task that it would be easier for me to do it myself. This isn't resentment, complaining or man-hating, it's just a fact of our relationship as we've allowed it to develop.

Is this situation influenced by the sexist text we both grew up with? Yes. Is it based on a historical division of labor where childcare was the exclusive work of women? Yes. Does it leave me with the bulk of the less pleasant parenting work while he "helps" by playing with other children? Yes. If we made our parenting choices with a very explicit goal of gender equity, would we do differently? Yes. But-- would it help at all to point out the sexist subtext of these arrangements? No, it definitely wouldn't. He would be very hurt by that, and it would pretty much ensure an unproductive discussion. Sussing out the issues of gender equity and domestic work would take a lot of time and delicate handling, and a lot of times I just need the baby to go back to sleep so I can too, and I choose to take the shortest route to that goal.

That's an example of everyday sexism and how it's difficult to talk about. Pearl's example of the sexually experienced woman was a great one. Probably a guy in this situation doesn't consciously think that he deserves to have more sex than she does. He just thinks, Eew. He can make allowances for himself that he can't make for her.

 

[LJT]

Therefore by taking the shortest route to your goal of the baby being asleep, aren't you being as complicit in the culture of sexism as any man?

I really don't think it would be that difficult to discuss with your husband (the oh I need a bit of help with this is a very old trick to get out of doing something and be lazy, not necessarily sexism).

Now the division of child care is definitely something tied in with sexism, but I think your severely underestimating how bothered your husband will be if you raise up he is not doing enough of it, I mean you don't even need to raise it from a sexism angle, just tell him to wise up and get on with it.

 

[Pearl]

As it happens, I have a neighbor who does not support suffrage for women. He's part of a very conservative religious movement called Biblical Patriarchy which is gathering a surprising amount of momentum. Politically speaking, they're most closely represented by the tea party although even that is too liberal for them.

In my own life I find that it's difficult for men and women to talk together about how sexism or the patriarchy influences our individual choices. We'd rather think that it's just circumstances, rather than cultural attitudes that push us in the direction we go. Here's an example from my own house.

My husband is not a sexist guy in any overtly identifiable way. He deeply intuitive and emotional, prefers the company of women to men and is not at all invested in traditional masculinity. However, he does have an unconscious assumption that unpleasant parenting work is easier for me than for him, whether it's stinky diapers or nighttime parenting. I didn't get any special diaper changing or baby soothing lessons when our kids were born. There's no reason why waking up to tend a baby is easier for me than him. But he tends to assume that these tasks will be done by me unless I specifically request otherwise. And when I do he frequently plays dumb, asking for so much help in carrying out the task that it would be easier for me to do it myself. This isn't resentment, complaining or man-hating, it's just a fact of our relationship as we've allowed it to develop.

Is this situation influenced by the sexist text we both grew up with? Yes. Is it based on a historical division of labor where childcare was the exclusive work of women? Yes. Does it leave me with the bulk of the less pleasant parenting work while he "helps" by playing with other children? Yes. If we made our parenting choices with a very explicit goal of gender equity, would we do differently? Yes. But-- would it help at all to point out the sexist subtext of these arrangements? No, it definitely wouldn't. He would be very hurt by that, and it would pretty much ensure an unproductive discussion. Sussing out the issues of gender equity and domestic work would take a lot of time and delicate handling, and a lot of times I just need the baby to go back to sleep so I can too, and I choose to take the shortest route to that goal.

That's an example of everyday sexism and how it's difficult to talk about. Pearl's example of the sexually experienced woman was a great one. Probably a guy in this situation doesn't consciously think that he deserves to have more sex than she does. He just thinks, Eew. He can make allowances for himself that he can't make for her.

Honestly, I think you're making a bigger deal out of the parenting issue than it needs to be. Yes, it is rooted in gender roles but I feel you're making it more than what it is. I'm also uncomfortable that you complained about your husband on the Internet like that.

As for sex, the one reason I keep hearing a lot from men who have a disdain for women with a long list of sexual partners is far from a guy thinking he deserves more sex than a woman. It comes from ego and male competition. Some men feel intimidated by woman who's had a lot of partners because they honestly are wondering how they would compare to the previous partners. Meaning, these men actually think that the woman they could be with would be comparing them to all the other guys they've slept with, and these guys don't want to be seen as lousy compared to some guy they've never met. And if a woman tells a man she's been with 50 guys, he will develop this neurotic mindset which would have him walk onto a subway train and wonder if all the men there slept with that woman. Some guys are very open about this mindset and fear, so I am not making anything up.

 

[Jive Turkey]

If we need to look to some fringe group of biblical kooks to prove a point, that says a lot about the point

 

[jeevey]

You're exactly right, LJT, in that it's exactly the sexist/patriarchal aspect that is troublesome to discuss. We don't want to think that it exists. If we represent it as purely personal decisionmaking that's fine. But if I mention that gender politics play a role, what he thinks what I'm saying is that he is a bad person, a sexist asshole. The implication that he, an ordinary good man, might make use of gender imbalances is deeply offensive, which makes gender politics as they exist for us very, very difficult to discuss.

And Pearl, I tried to make clear that it's not a complaint-- if what I wanted was sympathy I know of better places to go. It's a true representation of one aspect of our relationship that I used to illustrate a point. There are lots of good things about him, some of which I mentioned. GG wanted to know why men in particular might find it difficult to discuss, and I gave her the most concrete example I know of. The point is that gender politics exist even in good relationships between people who respect and love each other very much and have no conscious awareness or intention. Believe me, I knew I was taking a risk when I used a personal example. I'd like very much not to be judged for it. The point I've been trying to make for days is that gender politics play out on a personal level, among ordinary people, and this is one example of that.

 

[Pearl]

And Pearl, I tried to make clear that it's not a complaint-- if what I wanted was sympathy I know of better places to go. It's a true representation of one aspect of our relationship that I used to illustrate a point. There are lots of good things about him, some of which I mentioned. GG wanted to know why men in particular might find it difficult to discuss, and I gave her the most concrete example I know of. The point is that gender politics exist even in good relationships between people who respect and love each other very much and have no conscious awareness or intention. Believe me, I knew I was taking a risk when I used a personal example. I'd like very much not to be judged for it. The point I've been trying to make for days is that gender politics play out on a personal level, among ordinary people, and this is one example of that.

I get what you were trying to do, and I'm not judging you either. I just felt uneasy about that.

 

[Jive Turkey]

What about when things need to be fixed around the house? When the lawn needs mowing? When heavy shit needs lifting? When the garbage needs to be taken out? I'm sure there are at least some 'gender politics' that work in the other direction you'd be happy to work within. That isn't a complaint, it's just the way things sometimes are and that's ok

 

[cobl04]

On grand final day, mum and the female guests are in the kitchen making salads and desserts and laying out the table etc, while dad and the male guests are huddled around the barbeque cooking the meat.

 

[AEON]

I'm curious what the women in FYM think of the Miley Cyrus' VMA gyrations. Does it help or hurt feminism?

 

[Pearl]

I'm not thinking about Miley's act from a feminist perspective. I saw her performance as overdone and ridiculous, and I'm wondering why some child stars turn to raunchiness to prove they're grown up, which isn't really maturity anyway. She also likely did this for shock and attention.

Why are you curious about what we women think?

 

[AEON]

Why are you curious about what we women think?

Should I not be?

 

[AEON]

It seems most women were not to pleased with the performance.

Outraged parents: Why Miley Cyrus' performance sets girls and women back

But here's a comment defending Miley...

"The fact that she doesn't play the victim and shows that girls can be as aggressive and bad in many ways might in some twisted way pave the way for (women) to play in a more level field with men,"

 

[Irvine511]

i've found it's difficult to dance to "Blurred Lines" and not look crazy.

 

[iron yuppie]

"The fact that she doesn't play the victim and shows that girls can be as aggressive and bad in many ways might in some twisted way pave the way for (women) to play in a more level field with men,"

This is quite the generous interpretation. There are ways for women to own their sexuality in a way that is empowering; pandering to the raunchy-chic fad in as pompous and self-aggrandizing a manner as possible is certainly not one of them. People like Miley and Britney Spears are not just detriments to feminism, but to human society as a whole. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

 

[Pearl]

Should I not be?

No, I was curious because you've made comments before about protecting teen girls from teen boys, and you have a conservative attitude toward sex. So basically, I'm wondering what you are thinking about Miley's act. I hope you're not thinking the world is at end over this.

This is quite the generous interpretation. There are ways for women to own their sexuality in a way that is empowering; pandering to the raunchy-chic fad in as pompous and self-aggrandizing a manner as possible is certainly not one of them. People like Miley and Britney Spears are not just detriments to feminism, but to human society as a whole. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Exactly, and I didn't find that harsh at all. Miley is handling her sexuality in a immature way (how many times does she have to have her tongue hang out?) like she has no idea what it means.

 

[Pearl]

The only thing feminist I could think of about Miley's act is that it is really unfair that in order to be sexual, a woman has to be as naked as possible. Meanwhile a man can be fully clothed - like Robin Thicke - and still be seen as sexual. It is as though a woman can only be a sexual being if she's a piece of meat, instead of letting her sexy personality shine through. Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

 

[AEON]

So basically, I'm wondering what you are thinking about Miley's act. I hope you're not thinking the world is at end over this.

But that isn't what you asked.. You asked me, "Why are you curious about what we women think?"

However, since you're also curious about my opinion on Miley's act - it is about the same as Iron Yuppie.

 

[AEON]

The only thing feminist I could think of about Miley's act is that it is really unfair that in order to be sexual, a woman has to be as naked as possible. Meanwhile a man can be fully clothed - like Robin Thicke - and still be seen as sexual. It is as though a woman can only be a sexual being if she's a piece of meat, instead of letting her sexy personality shine through. Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

I was always attracted to Lilith from Cheers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbyzC07HLow

 

[Pearl]

My opinion on the Miley's act is about the same as Iron Yuppie.

Which is fine with me.

One person I think is a good example of having a sexy personality yet being influenced by what society says about women being sexy is the actress Olivia Munn. I can see why a lot of guys like her. She's funny, intelligent, and confident. She also seems like the type who would play video games or cheer on a football team during the Super Bowl, but the next day, go get a mani-pedi. A lot of guys like that. But sadly, she tends to wear skimpy clothes to award shows because she says she's expressing her sexy side. That's sad because she's already sexy enough by her personality. Wearing revealing clothes makes her look desperate, which is not sexy.

 

[iron yuppie]

Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

Maybe that realization is something that comes with age. There are plenty of women in middle age who bear little skin but nonetheless convey sensuality. Mariska Hargitay comes to mind.