Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Pearl]

Apart from the fact the 1 out of 3 stat is highly suspect (though that doesn't diminish the fact that one rape alone is a terrible thing), and the fact that I don't actively engage in any sexist behaviour or abuse, the whole "if you're a man, you're still contributing to the problem" is a lazy, easy out for someone not willing to look at a complicated issue more critically

Some feminists would point out that some men do engage in sexist behavior but don't realize it because of how society is.

I am not saying that you, JT, specifically are one of those men, as I have not seen any clear evidence of sexism from you. But I'm sure many men are like that. Even some women don't realize they are being treated unfairly because society has not always been so kind to women.

As for that 1 out of 3 statistic, it may be possible. Most cultures in the world don't have progressive attitudes toward women. Look at India, which is known for its poor treatment of women of all ages and classes. And it has one billion people. That figure alone contributes to the possibility that one-third of the planet's women has been abused.

 

[Jive Turkey]

I'm not denying there's a problem, Pearl. And certainly I would agree with you, in less progressive countries, the problem is probably ten fold. But there are more productive ways to address the situation.

As far as the stat goes, I believe it was meant to be a statistic for the US. The problem is, it includes such sketchy definitions for sexual abuse as "have you ever drank alcohol, had a sexual encounter, then regretted it the next day"; I'm sorry, but that isn't sexual abuse. Studies like those dilute the real problems and divert the conversations.

As usual, I think he probably agree more than we disagree

 

[Irvine511]

No. It was always a global statistic.

 

[Jive Turkey]

No it wasn't. It was a nation wide study (your nation)

 

[Irvine511]

No it wasn't. It was a nation wide study (your nation)

Yes. It was a global thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/20/health/global-violence-women

 

[jeevey]

This article touches on what I was trying to say a while back about various types of privilege. Even a man never engages in sexist behavior, he still benefits from the privilege of being male and takes it for granted. (As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)

Just like how white people benefit from our racist culture without meaning too. I've never been followed though a store by management under the assumption that I may steal something, which is an experience many people of color have. I benefit from straight privilege too- I've never had anyone assume that I'm a pedophile based on my orientation, but it's an experience common to gay men. An important part of making a more just society is realizing that those privileges are real, whether you want them or not.

Also, the most common type of sexist behavior among men who sympathize with feminism is failing to really hear what women are saying. To say, "that's not the way it is, your experience or your interpretation of it is invalid. Let me tell you how it really is and what feminism really needs to do, and how to fix your problems. " The hardest thing for any privileged group to do is be quiet and just listen to what the Other has to say.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Yes. It was a global thing.

WHO: 1 in 3 women experience physical or sexual violence - CNN.com

Then we're talking about different studies

 

[Irvine511]

Then we're talking about different studies

Mine isn't dubious.

 

[Jive Turkey]

This article touches on what I was trying to say a while back about various types of privilege. Even a man never engages in sexist behavior, he still benefits from the privilege of being male and takes it for granted.

Even if I benefit from the culture, how does that make me a perpetrator? Should I say 'no' to anything that might benefit me on the chance it might be because I'm a man? What about a man who is an advocate for women's rights, yet still has no choice but to benefit from the way society is structured? Is he still an unwilling sexist?

(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)

I don't think it's fair to say "every woman". I can guarantee you if you asked any girl I've dated if they at any time worried about that in the months getting to know me, the answer would be no

I've never been followed though a store by management under the assumption that I may steal something

I have. Three times in the last 6 months or so. Not on the basis of my colour, but on the basis of my perceived age (oil of olay, twice a day) and the fact I was in an upscale antique shop each time.

I've never had anyone assume that I'm a pedophile based on my orientation

Men are never given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to rules governing kids playgrounds, amusements parks, etc. A man was recently denied entry into Legoland because he wasn't accompanied by a child.
I had a photo prof that had the cops show up at his door because he was taking pictures of his son in the park about 10 years ago. He's in his 50s, so he might've looked a bit old to have a toddler aged son, but that's not the point. Someone saw him taking pictures, assumed he was a pedophile, and phoned the police

Also, the most common type of sexist behavior among men who sympathize with feminism is failing to really hear what women are saying. To say, "that's not the way it is, your experience or your interpretation of it is invalid. Let me tell you how it really is and what feminism really needs to do, and how to fix your problems." The hardest thing for any privileged group to do is be quiet and just listen to what the Other has to say.

I'm happy to listen to the other side, but I won't "be quiet". Nothing productive has ever come from a one way street

 

[Jive Turkey]

Mine isn't dubious.

What are you basing that on?

 

[Irvine511]

What are you basing that on?

The WHO.

 

[Jive Turkey]

The WHO.

I know who reported the study, but there was no information on methodology in that article

 

[Pearl]

While I think this should have it's own thread, this issue is tied to the double-standard girls face when rumors or sexually explicit photos of them go viral:

A girl has been hospitalized after photos of her giving oral sex at an outdoor concert exploded on the Internet.
The girl, who according to some reports is 17 years old, was photographed at an Eminem concert in Ireland on Saturday. In one photo, she is on her knees giving fellatio, while the man raises his arms in a sign of victory. In another, she is kissing the same man while he reaches under her skirt. In yet another, she appears to be giving oral sex to a second unidentified man.

As the graphic photos quickly went viral, the girl unwittingly became the latest target of brutal cyber-bullying.
The hashtag #slanegirl, used primarily to ridicule her, trended globally for a short period on Monday. Internet users posted and shared the explicit photos on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Tumblr -- actions that could constitute criminal behavior if the girl is, as reported, 17 years old.
Irish police are now investigating the incident, the BBC reports.
Sources told The Irish Independent that the girl is 'devastated' and was so distraught she had to be sedated in the hospital Monday afternoon.
According to a source, "the teenager has not been medically fit enough to make a formal statement yet, but when that happens this could turn into a sexual assault investigation."
Facebook and Instagram have both taken steps to remove images of the girl from the Internet. According to Motherboard, a “Slane Girl” Facebook page received 8,000 likes before being removed on Monday:

At the New Statesmen, Sarah Ditum wrote a compelling piece about how girls are slut-shamed in the digital age:

In the world of popular sexual mores, public oral sex is apparently seen as pretty much neutral for men. It's the woman who gets to be the repository for everything deemed shameful or disgraceful about sex. If a man gets caught in some non-socially-sanctioned screwing, he's just being a man, and his reputation is unharmed.
​

Police in Ireland have asked the public to respect the girl's privacy.

Girl Cyber-Bullied, Hospitalized After Oral Sex Photos Go Viral

I despise slut-shaming. No wait, hate it! Hate it!

Why aren't the two boys involved being hospitalized with a nervous breakdown? Why are they getting pats on the back for getting head? Why aren't they respecting their own privacy?

Here is this poor girl who's being slut-shamed worldwide and is now ruined mentally and emotionally from it. Of course, she'll also be remembered for this, while those two guys can carry on like nothing happened.

This is an epidemic. A girl in Canada committed suicide over allegations she was either raped or had sex with multiple guys at a party. Where I used to live, a girl committed suicide at the train station I used to use over the slut-shaming she experienced after a party. Even her so-called best friend deserted her.

This is proof that the double-standard is bullshit and it is killing people who should not be driven to despair.

 

[Pearl]

I don't think it's fair to say "every woman". I can guarantee you if you asked any girl I've dated if they at any time worried about that in the months getting to know me, the answer would be no

I think what jeevey was trying to say here was that most women - and maybe every woman - is always on alert on the possibility of being raped by a guy. Since women are usually raped by men that they know, rather than strangers, it is something that goes through our heads when meeting a guy, even for a millisecond. It's something we are conditioned with, just like being careful on what to wear when you're alone at night.

 

[AEON]

While I think this should have it's own thread, this issue is tied to the double-standard girls face when rumors or sexually explicit photos of them go viral:



Girl Cyber-Bullied, Hospitalized After Oral Sex Photos Go Viral

I despise slut-shaming. No wait, hate it! Hate it!

Why aren't the two boys involved being hospitalized with a nervous breakdown? Why are they getting pats on the back for getting head? Why aren't they respecting their own privacy?

Here is this poor girl who's being slut-shamed worldwide and is now ruined mentally and emotionally from it. Of course, she'll also be remembered for this, while those two guys can carry on like nothing happened.

This is an epidemic. A girl in Canada committed suicide over allegations she was either raped or had sex with multiple guys at a party. Where I used to live, a girl committed suicide at the train station I used to use over the slut-shaming she experienced after a party. Even her so-called best friend deserted her.

This is proof that the double-standard is bullshit and it is killing people who should not be driven to despair.

Are you arguing that both men and women should be driven to despair equally? Or that nobody should ever feel "shame" for having multiple sexual partners in a public setting? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

 

[jeevey]

Even if I benefit from the culture, how does that make me a perpetrator? Should I say 'no' to anything that might benefit me on the chance it might be because I'm a man? What about a man who is an advocate for women's rights, yet still has no choice but to benefit from the way society is structured? Is he still an unwilling sexist?

It makes you a beneficiary. It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it. Personally I have trouble with the word perpetrator is this usage.
perpetrator- a person who commits an immoral, criminal or evil act. I think using it in this case is a sort passive-aggressive defense where you are challenging people to see you either as evil or not sexist at all, when the truth is that a most sexism, while wrong, is simply an unconscious, accidental result of one's socialization.

I don't think it's fair to say "every woman". I can guarantee you if you asked any girl I've dated if they at any time worried about that in the months getting to know me, the answer would be no

Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day. Any time you have met a woman for the first time and she considered spending time with you in anything other that a crowded public space, chances are that she checked in with herself about if she felt you are safe. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice or safe you actually are. That's just what women have to do in our society, and that's just the price that all men pay because some men rape. It's unfair to the non-rapists, but that's just the way it is.

I'm happy to listen to the other side, but I won't "be quiet". Nothing productive has ever come from a one way street

Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender. Talking about it is a conversation, but experiential knowing can really only come from a woman. So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.

 

[AEON]

It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it

. I think there are plenty of men that understand if you treat everyone with respect, dignity, and kindness - then you're doing about the best thing you can possibly do across the board.

 

[AEON]

So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.

But you just said it was impossible unless we get a sex change.

It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender.

 

[Pearl]

Are you arguing that both men and women should be driven to despair equally? Or that nobody should ever feel "shame" for having multiple sexual partners in a public setting? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

I think you misread my response to that article.

Here it is again:

Why aren't the two boys involved being hospitalized with a nervous breakdown? Why are they getting pats on the back for getting head? Why aren't they respecting their own privacy?

Here is this poor girl who's being slut-shamed worldwide and is now ruined mentally and emotionally from it. Of course, she'll also be remembered for this, while those two guys can carry on like nothing happened.

This is an epidemic. A girl in Canada committed suicide over allegations she was either raped or had sex with multiple guys at a party. Where I used to live, a girl committed suicide at the train station I used to use over the slut-shaming she experienced after a party. Even her so-called best friend deserted her.

This is proof that the double-standard is bullshit and it is killing people who should not be driven to despair.

 

[Irvine511]

Are you arguing that both men and women should be driven to despair equally? Or that nobody should ever feel "shame" for having multiple sexual partners in a public setting? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

Do you think a man would be as shamed in this situation as a woman?

It always bothered me, especially now looking back at being a teenager, how boys would do everything they could to get as far as they could with a girl, and then turn around and rake her over the coals for giving them what they wanted.

It's something I find very upsetting about heterosexuality, especially among the young.

 

[Pearl]

Do you think a man would be as shamed in this situation as a woman?

It always bothered me, especially now looking back at being a teenager, how boys would do everything they could to get as far as they could with a girl, and then turn around and rake her over the coals for giving them what they wanted.

It's something I find very upsetting about heterosexuality, especially among the young.

Thank you, Irvine.

For lack of a better term, it is total bullshit that boys are allowed to be boys while if a girl acts the same way, she is immediately a whore who should be ostracized from society. The double-standard baffles me.

It is really society's way of shaming a woman for owning her sexuality.

 

[jeevey]

But you just said it was impossible unless we get a sex change.

I said it's impossible for men to experience sexism as women do. And it is.

If I want to know what it's like to do something I've never done, I have to ask someone who has. It would be silly for me to say, "No, that's not what skydiving is like." I would have to listen to skydivers tell about skydiving, and then use my imagination and my empathy to picture what that experience is like, and then check in with the skydivers to see if I'm getting the right impression. And someday with good observation and listening I may have a pretty good picture of what skydiving is like. But I would never really know by experience what it's like until I did it myself.

 

[BVS]

(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)

Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day.

Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender.

You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.

 

[Pearl]

You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.

Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.

 

[Jive Turkey]

It makes you a beneficiary. It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it. Personally I have trouble with the word perpetrator is this usage.

But let's say I'm not unintentionally sexist since there is no evidence in my life to suggest I am. I'm merely a 'beneficiary'. How does it help the situation at all to continually point out that I'm a beneficiary? How do you cope with being a beneficiary of being white? Of being straight? Of living in the USA? Of not being born into poverty? Of not being born with any outward mental deficiencies? Of being born without any physical handicaps? Do these things make you an unintentional racist, homophobe, xenophobe, classist, ableist? Or are you just an individual making your way through a world filled with isms in which you're in no way promoting or perpetuating?

Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day. Any time you have met a woman for the first time and she considered spending time with you in anything other that a crowded public space, chances are that she checked in with herself about if she felt you are safe. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice or safe you actually are. That's just what women have to do in our society, and that's just the price that all men pay because some men rape. It's unfair to the non-rapists, but that's just the way it is.

No, I'm sorry, but no. You're simply wrong here. I'd be more than happy to ask my current girlfriend about this. You're taking your own feelings and experiences and projecting them on every other woman. Am I doubting the fact that more than likely, every woman has at multiple points thought about the possibility of being raped? Or at some point (probably multiple points) been afraid to walk home at night for fear of rape being a real possibility? of course not. But to say that every woman at some time has thought that every man might at some point rape her is simply untrue fear mongering.

Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender. Talking about it is a conversation, but experiential knowing can really only come from a woman. So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.

I have empathy. There isn't a single human emotion that you've experienced that I haven't experienced to the same degree. You don't have a monopoly on that. I'm able to listen, to put myself in the shoes of someone in a position I've never been in, to relate that to an event in my life, and to take all that and speak to that person on equal terms. I have felt shame, embarrassment, fear, discrimination, judgement, belittlement. You don't get the free pass of "well, you just don't understand" as if it's a trump card of some sort.

 

[BVS]

Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.

I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.

 

[Jive Turkey]

You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.

Haven't seen you around for a bit. Welcome back

 

[BVS]

Thanks

 

[AEON]

I think you misread my response to that article.

Here it is again:

Yes, there is a double-standard and I agree that after fifty plus years of feminism, we may not be making progress in this area. Perhaps we need to listen to young men as well - and really to understand this line of thinking.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.

I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.

The thing about jeevey's statement that was completely over the top was assuming every woman has thought she might be raped by every man she's ever met. And I think that's what BVS was addressing.

But I don't think it's outlandish to think that probably every women has thought about the possibility of being raped. I've thought about the possibility of being murdered. I've walked down some sketchy ass streets at night where it became a thought more forefront in my mind. So in that, I think it's only natural