Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

Well I can't say I disagree with that. I just feel the general tone of the article isn't particularly helpful

 

[jeevey]

My sense is that these subjects are uncomfortable for men no matter what the tone is. Male privilege and male guilt are real, just white privilege and white guilt. Talking about it is bound to be uncomfortable. The man in my life has an identical reaction whenever similar subjects come up.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Just to be clear, I'm not uncomfortable with the subject (honestly, where in any of my responses have I shown even a hint of discomfort? I speak more matter of factly on the subject than you do). Nor am I guilty. Nor do I harbor white guilt. My response to the article couldn't have been more rational. The silly sweeping generalizations and prejudices you've displayed reveal much more about you than they do about me. Let's just stick to facts

 

[jeevey]

You're funny. I suppose we both reveal a lot about ourselves.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Feel free to elaborate on that. Sounds like a kneejerk, nonsense response to me

 

[jeevey]

That's a response that means I think we're unlikely to get to the bottom of this in a productive way. We could go on disagreeing, but not I think in a way that's going to make our respective positions more accessible to each other.

I'm not saying that you are irrational or angry. I think our conversation has been pretty civil, and that's nice.

I'll try and explain what I mean by "uncomfortable" and "offended". I know you aren't actively pissed, because I think things would be louder in here if you were. I think you find the tone of the article not very helpful, because it places responsibility on men. I think that doesn't feel nice- the implication that individual men bear some responsibility for sexism.

You didn't create the sexist world we live in, but you benefit from it without meaning to. You have experiences women don't and escape ones that we can't. You don't do it on purpose but you can't avoid it- no man can. No white or straight person can, either- we just benefit from social attitudes that exist. I've never been followed around a store by clerk who assumes I'm a thief, because I'm a white girl. Black people do. I didn't ask for that, but I get it. You've probably never feared stranger rape in your home while enjoying an evening in by yourself, but most women have. It's just part of being a dude instead of a woman. The only thing we can do is become aware of our attitudes and try to become more aware of the experiences of others, and how we unconsciously perpetuate the negativity. It's a process gender/race/whatever studies people call checking your privilege, and it's profoundly... uncomfortable. Not pleasant, not natural, not enjoyable, discomfiting, what have you. A process of growth, not necessarily a fun one.

 

[Jive Turkey]

It's got nothing to do with placing the responsibility "on men". It has to do with them intentionally using a shitty quote as if that guy is representative of "all men". It exposes their bias quite clearly.
I know it helps you think you've got it all figured out, but this "male privilege guilt" you're trying to place on me is a lazy argument. Sounds like you might walk around with a bit of white guilt, but neither of those are part of my life. The whole argument reeks of Original Sin mentality. It's pseudo-psychoanalytical nonsense. Funny that the article you posted wants to dismiss Freudian analysis of women (and rightly so), but you'd like to use the same reasoning on men.
And in the case of the situation in the article, how does claiming I harbour some sort of latent guilt solve anything? I've already stated that I agree it's impolite if a man doesn't reciprocate. It's not my problem (can't wait to hear the prepackaged response to that). You seem to want to blame "men" as if we're all identical automatons. You're oversimplifying the issue to fit in with your beliefs. This isn't a "man" problem. It's an individual problem.

 

[jeevey]

You may be right about the original sin issue, in that I'm speaking of factual guilt, not the feeling of guilt. If I've been a jerk to somebody than I'm guilty of being unkind, whether or not I feel bad about it. If I benefit from and unconsciously perpetuate a system that oppresses others (and I do- the farmworkers who get cancer from spreading the pesticides I eat and the sweatshop laborers whose clothes I buy without pushing to improve their working conditions, for instance) than I'm guilty of colluding in their oppression, whether or not I'm aware of it, or give a fuck.

When only 25 or 30% of women are getting off in hookups, and 30% of all women are not getting off regularly with partners when they want to, (another set of statistics) then we have a problem that is both social and individual. It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

It's true that not every guy is represented by the one who said, "in a hookup I don't give a shit", but... if 90% of men are getting off in hookups and only 30% of women are, than the individual comment represents a wider social attitude that helps create that difference.

 

[Pearl]

You may be right about the original sin issue, in that I'm speaking of factual guilt, not the feeling of guilt. If I've been a jerk to somebody than I'm guilty of being unkind, whether or not I feel bad about it. If I benefit from and unconsciously perpetuate a system that oppresses others (and I do- the farmworkers who get cancer from spreading the pesticides I eat and the sweatshop laborers whose clothes I buy without pushing to improve their working conditions, for instance) than I'm guilty of colluding in their oppression, whether or not I'm aware of it, or give a fuck.

When only 25 or 30% of women are getting off in hookups, and 30% of all women are not getting off regularly with partners when they want to, (another set of statistics) then we have a problem that is both social and individual. It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

It's true that not every guy is represented by the one who said, "in a hookup I don't give a shit", but... if 90% of men are getting off in hookups and only 30% of women are, than the individual comment represents a wider social attitude that helps create that difference.

Perhaps this may be because women prefer sex within relationships? Whether its biology or social conditioning, not all women enjoy hookups. Some have casual sex because that's what you're supposed to do in life - according to some. Or, they want casual sex but may feel guilty because others have taught them they are worthless for doing that.

 

[BVS]

It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

And what about the individual problem on the women's side? Are they not communicating to these men, do they keep allowing these one sided casual encounters? You seemed to have forgotten that piece of the puzzle.

 

[jeevey]

It's true that not all women enjoy hookups, and that there is a lack of communication around it. But that lack of communications is based around a culture- shared by men and women- that privileges male pleasure. If a man doesn't have to ask before giving a facial or choking out, let alone having an orgasm, and a woman does have to ask just to come.... that shows a fair bit about the unevenness in the sexual culture.


That last bit of rawness was from a fascinating book by Naomi Wolf called Vagina. It touches a lot on some of the issues that you mention, Pearl. She's gotten a lot of shit from traditionalists for making a lot of noise about female pleasure, and a ton of shit from feminists for presenting research that indicates that women do have an emotional/sexual (or 'brain/vagina") connection like you mention. Whether or not women really truly do or do not like to have sex in ways we traditionally think of as "masculine"- many partners without commitments or emotional bonds - is still an open question. Of course it's largely individual- some do and some don't. And it's almost impossible to tell what's biological and what's socialized.

But presumably those women hooking up would prefer to get off while they were there. And across the board, that's not happening. If all of a sudden, the roles were reversed and 75% of men didn't come in their last hookup, if 80% of men seldom or never had orgasm from penetration, if 30% of men reliably didn't come when they wanted to, that would be a national conversation. I just think that's what we should be having presently.

This site is a little lame and sensationalist, and the title is obviously obnoxious but I did think the text was more nuanced and had some interesting info.

89% of College Students Hate Hookup Culture

 

[BVS]

But that lack of communications is based around a culture- shared by men and women- that privileges male pleasure. If a man doesn't have to ask before giving a facial or choking out, let alone having an orgasm, and a woman does have to ask just to come.... that shows a fair bit about the unevenness in the sexual culture.

This is a cop out. You can't place the only individual blame on the male and the female blame gets lumped into the societal category. In the situation you presented above(the one I originally commented on), both individuals and society are to blame.

 

[Pearl]

I agree both are to blame, because not every woman is a doormat during sex. Its true many of us are conditioned to think we have to be submissive and unaware of our sexual needs. But if you look the right way, we do have permission - and the right - to own our sexuality and make sure our needs are met.

Speaking of which, I hear that in erotica books, the most popular sex scenes is when the man instinctively knows exactly what the woman wants, and she has multiple orgasms as a result. Sounds cool in fantasy, but who really wants the man to be in charge of their body and sexuality like that? That's what it comes down to, when you really think about it.

 

[jeevey]

This is a cop out. You can't place the only individual blame on the male and the female blame gets lumped into the societal category. In the situation you presented above(the one I originally commented on), both individuals and society are to blame.

How is that a cop out? I'm not really getting it.

You are right, Pearl, that women DO have that right- as a human right. Everyone deserves it. But socially they don't feel enabled to, as that last link I posted mentions. Here's a really interesting book about women owning their desires and finding out what they want. What You Really Really Want | The Smart Girl's Shame-Free Guide to Sex and Safety I haven't had a chance to read it yet but it looks great.

Yeah, I've seen that trope in erotica. The magical lover who has no learning curve! He's omniscient!

The other one that makes me roll my eyes is when she comes multiply, uncontrollably from hard thrusting. His cock is magical and always perfect! I mean maybe that happens sometimes, but only like 30% of women come regularly from penetration at all. Yet there seems to be this idea among erotic writers- most of whom are women- that that is an ideal way to be. Like, everything would be so super if only our bodies worked that way.

But we don't really eroticize observing our partners carefully, or verbal communication, or showing them what to do... all of which are a hell of a lot easier to come by than omniscience and a magical cock.

 

[Jive Turkey]

The other one that makes me roll my eyes is when she comes multiply, uncontrollably from hard thrusting.

I've had girlfriends who have specifically asked for this sort of thing. Maybe before rolling your eyes, you need to recognize that all women are different. Just as all men are

 

[deep]

magic cock is true

I once saw a live show

 

[Jive Turkey]

I saw your pre-edited post, deep... I rated it 2 stars out of 10. This was an improvement

 

[BVS]

How is that a cop out? I'm not really getting it.

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Also, I'm reading a lot of book recommendations, but not a whole lot of substance

 

[Jive Turkey]

Not to keep harping on about that dumb quote, but another interesting point is how they took what that man said (regardless of how poorly he worded it), then used it in a way he never intended. The article twisted his phrasing to make it seem like he didn't "give a shit" about the women he's having sex with. The way he clearly intended was that he didn't give a shit whether the girl was his girlfriend or a hookup, he was all about making her orgasm. The the article followed up with "Well women know the difference". So this man was completely interested in pleasing his partners, but because of his poor choice of words, the author of the article decided to spin it against him. Just another example of the deceitful tactics being used.

 

[deep]

no magic cock, then what of the jive turkey? I believe in the fraternity of the fowl

I saw your pre-edited post, deep... I rated it 2 stars out of 10. This was an improvement

that was just for you,
this one gets 2 1/2 stars, still it is one of the more credible posts in here

 

[deep]

as someone that was alive in the 70s and someone that actually went out with members of local chapter of National Organization for Women. (just for drinks)
I met them at demonstration against my Police Chief and one captain that had met with women police officers after hours and got them drunk and raped them. Anyways, I wanted these NOW members to explain their concerns and issues in their own words to me. It was very educational. None of them complained about the orgasm deficiency. I really think this latest turn has trivialized feminism.


the orgasm equality topic, not much to discuss there in regards to society, etc.

It simply comes down to evolution, and how the species propagates itself.

Men are not having more orgasms. They are releasing sperm where evolution wants them to, to meet with women's eggs.

If love making only consisted of each partner stimulating the other orally to climax, then we could have a discussion about equality.

 

[Irvine511]

It's so much less complicated having sex with dudes.

 

[jeevey]

You guys are inadvertently making my point over and over. Most people are not trying to make babies when they go looking for an orgasm. So why are a majority of people still having sex as if they were? Unless you're trying to conceive, than you have absolutely no reason to go along with that "simple biology" business. Why are we not much more dedicated to just making sure both partners have a good time? Defending this position also makes you look like uninteresting partners...

And "Dude, my GF loves hard thrusting" is not really an adequate way to address a cultural trope. Now, if you had a nice controlled study about how many US women report howling orgasms after hard thrusting or a survey of sex acts included in erotic fictions, then I could give that some time.

And if lovemaking did consist only of oral, we would have something a lot more like equality. Neato, eh?

As for the lots of book recommendations.... that's because actual information is useful when discussing a topic. Plus, you know, finding stuff out is kinda neat.

 

[jeevey]

It's so much less complicated having sex with dudes.

I'm pretty sure this is why women like gay porn and read slash. Every possibility is absolutely reciprocal. There's no default power dynamic- they have to be decided on.

Well, it's one reason, anyway...

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

I agree with that. I don't know how this turned into a sex topic, but anyway..it is feminist (but not necessarily- it can be just taking your own personal responsibility for your own satisfaction, happiness, whatever) to take that responsibility. If you're not getting what you want from a relationship or one night stand, whatever you're having-then take the control over that and don't be with those types of people. Change your patterns and outlook.

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past. Unless you have personal issues that cause you to be drawn to those sorts of people and unhealthy situations, that cause you to think you don't deserve equal pleasure, etc. That obviously exists, but it's up to that person to recognize it and to take the necessary steps to change that. No other person can take the responsibility or blame for that. Feminism means equal rights and equal personal responsibilities. Taking control over those things is very empowering.

 

[Jive Turkey]

You guys are inadvertently making my point over and over. Most people are not trying to make babies when they go looking for an orgasm. So why are a majority of people still having sex as if they were? Unless you're trying to conceive, than you have absolutely no reason to go along with that "simple biology" business. Why are we not much more dedicated to just making sure both partners have a good time? Defending this position also makes you look like uninteresting partners...

When your only point seems to be "it's the fault of men", I hardly see any one here making your point "over and over"
I made it quite clear why biology is important. I won't spend any more energy repeating myself. And since you're throwing around insults, the way you've been defending your position makes you sound like you've got some personal issues with men you need to take care of before tackling any of this business.

And "Dude, my GF loves hard thrusting" is not really an adequate way to address a cultural trope. Now, if you had a nice controlled study about how many US women report howling orgasms after hard thrusting or a survey of sex acts included in erotic fictions, then I could give that some time.

Again, interesting light you've chosen to illustrate my comment with (not completely unexpected). If you can't address a point without resorting to caricaturizing it (especially a point made in a completely mature manner), maybe you need to reassess what your problem is with it in the first place. It seems you can't wrap your head around the fact that some women might actually like to have sex in ways that differ from you (is "hard thrusting" not in line with your 'feminist' ideals?). My comment to you was in response to you 'rolling your eyes' as if it was outlandish that a woman might like things a bit rough. And whats more, your whole point is that men don't listen to what women want. When I mention a scenario in which I did respond to a specific need, you turn your nose up and imply I'm some sort of mouth breathing dude-bro, because that sort of sex doesn't appeal to you personally. Completely ridiculous. A little more consistency might mask your real motivations

And if lovemaking did consist only of oral, we would have something a lot more like equality. Neato, eh?

You seem to have an issue with vaginal sex.

As for the lots of book recommendations.... that's because actual information is useful when discussing a topic. Plus, you know, finding stuff out is kinda neat.

You know what's also neat? Understanding what you read, internalizing it, and expressing it to others in your own words. You should try it some time. Otherwise you just come across as someone who desperately wants to come off as well read, but can't be bothered taking the time to actually be so


My advice to you: Take care of your personal issues first, then think about reaching outward

 

[Jive Turkey]

Every possibility is absolutely reciprocal. There's no default power dynamic- they have to be decided on.

very revealing

 

[Jive Turkey]

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past.

 

[jeevey]

I agree with that. I don't know how this turned into a sex topic, but anyway..it is feminist (but not necessarily- it can be just taking your own personal responsibility for your own satisfaction, happiness, whatever) to take that responsibility. If you're not getting what you want from a relationship or one night stand, whatever you're having-then take the control over that and don't be with those types of people. Change your patterns and outlook.

Women not being in control over all of that is a long gone thing of the past. Unless you have personal issues that cause you to be drawn to those sorts of people and unhealthy situations, that cause you to think you don't deserve equal pleasure, etc. That obviously exists, but it's up to that person to recognize it and to take the necessary steps to change that. No other person can take the responsibility or blame for that. Feminism means equal rights and equal personal responsibilities. Taking control over those things is very empowering.

I totally agree with you that women need to take part in educating their partners about what they want. I do think though, that each partner receiving satisfaction should be assumed. The question should not be "if" but "how".

I don't have issue with vaginal sex- I have issues with the assumption that it's good enough all by itself, when for many women it's not. The assumption should be that both people are satisfied every time. The imagination might need to get a little larger and the partners more generous, brave or conscious to make that happen.

And again, Jive, the initial 'multiple O from hard thrusting' comment was about a cultural trope- how acts are used in fiction. I was rolling my eyes not at the huge variation of acts which people sometimes enjoy, but at the over representation and idealization of this certain mode of female sexuality. There are lots of unrealistic tropes we could laugh at that are unfair to both men and women.