Is Feminism Still Relevant? - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-25-2013, 04:07 PM   #141
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Pens specifically for women?

As a pen collector, I guess I have the wrong pens on my desk.
__________________

Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:01 AM   #142
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
We don't tend to think of women as sexist, largely because historically, sexism has been something perpetrated by men towards women. But sexism refers simply to unequal treatment in relation to a person's gender. It often involves a power dynamic -- common in the workplace -- and can happen to, and be inflicted by, anyone. Many feminists have rejected the notion that women can be sexist towards men because women lack the institutional power than men have. Except we know that's changing, most notably at work, as more females rise to management positions, a trend that will only continue to grow, since women now comprise the majority of college and graduate students nationwide.
The rise of females in power positions may be one reason that more and more men are reporting having experienced discrimination at work -- even more so than women. A 2006 study commissioned by staffing agency Kelly Services found that nearly 35 percent of men said they believed they had experienced discrimination over the past five years at work compared with 33.3 percent of women. Of course, like Sari, many women may be surprised to find that they can, in fact, be sexist, or that the "preferences" they hold in the workplace may actually be dangerously prejudicial. In many cases, such sexism is what researchers have dubbed "benevolent sexism," a less overt form of sexism that often plays on stereotypes such as the idea that men should always open doors, or that women are more nurturing and kinder than men. They are comments or attitudes that are seemingly positive -- such as, a man can surely handle criticism -- but serve to cause feelings of unease, or lead to unequal treatment. And, according to study conducted at the University of Florida, such sexism is practiced by men and women in equal measure.
Dr. Peggy Drexler: Who Says Women Aren't Sexist?

I think this is very true in a lot of cases. I didn't think of myself as a feminist until after college and I got my first "real world" job. It was then that I really experienced how men and women worked together. I felt as if the place where I worked expected all females to be dainty, nurturing, always in need of help - damsels in distress, basically - and not aggressive in anyway in getting a job done. I wasn't like any of that, and there were problems. Some of the guys made no secret that I annoyed them and some of the girls seemed to lean on the guys to save them. It may have been a personality issue on my part and I wasn't fitting with the workplace culture, but was it really sexist or was it just me?

Anyway, I'm just saying sometimes what anyone can perceive as sexism - or even any kind of prejudice - may just be about the individual and nothing else.

And by the way, I don't mind some forms of "benevolent sexism". I love it when guys hold doors open for women. Who wouldn't want to be treated like a queen?
__________________

Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:13 AM   #143
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,096
Local Time: 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Dr. Peggy Drexler: Who Says Women Aren't Sexist?

I think this is very true in a lot of cases. I didn't think of myself as a feminist until after college and I got my first "real world" job. It was then that I really experienced how men and women worked together. I felt as if the place where I worked expected all females to be dainty, nurturing, always in need of help - damsels in distress, basically - and not aggressive in anyway in getting a job done. I wasn't like any of that, and there were problems. Some of the guys made no secret that I annoyed them and some of the girls seemed to lean on the guys to save them. It may have been a personality issue on my part and I wasn't fitting with the workplace culture, but was it really sexist or was it just me?
Probably there was some sexism there, in that you weren't behaving in the "right", expected way. Probably people didn't even consciously identify that you weren't acting right for a woman- but I bet it didn't take them long to find the word 'bitch' behind your back. That's usually a really good tipoff that that there is some sexist bullshit going on.


Women's sexist attitudes are referred to as internalized sexism. Nonstraight and people of color experience internalized bias against their own ingroups, too.

FAQ: What is “internalized sexism”? | Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

"What it does mean, however, is that it is very easy for women — even feminist women — to side with the “male” point of view (see the FAQ entry on male privilege for how “male” is seen as “normal”) and therefore devalue the “female” point of view, in ourselves, in other women, and even in men."

We all swim in the same sea, so we can't get away from some of the attitudes we are raised with. In my case, it's often eye rolling at those super nurturey women who seem to have nothing better to think about.
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:44 AM   #144
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeevey View Post
Probably there was some sexism there, in that you weren't behaving in the "right", expected way. Probably people didn't even consciously identify that you weren't acting right for a woman- but I bet it didn't take them long to find the word 'bitch' behind your back. That's usually a really good tipoff that that there is some sexist bullshit going on.


Women's sexist attitudes are referred to as internalized sexism. Nonstraight and people of color experience internalized bias against their own ingroups, too.

FAQ: What is “internalized sexism”? | Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog

"What it does mean, however, is that it is very easy for women — even feminist women — to side with the “male” point of view (see the FAQ entry on male privilege for how “male” is seen as “normal”) and therefore devalue the “female” point of view, in ourselves, in other women, and even in men."

We all swim in the same sea, so we can't get away from some of the attitudes we are raised with. In my case, it's often eye rolling at those super nurturey women who seem to have nothing better to think about.
Yeah, it is more likely that it was a sexist workplace. Maybe if I had been more flexible I wouldn't have experienced so much animosity, but then I wouldn't be true to myself. And "bitch" was one of the kinder words I knew that was being said about me.

In regards to that, some women go along with sexism to get what they want. If they're expected to be the damsel in distress, they'll go along with that if it could possibly lead to a promotion or getting the job done. But they also don't get much respect as a person; they're still second to a man. I don't know if they're just playing the game or find their work more important than their dignity. Of course, they could always move on to another company. But some stay in the same place for a long time, and that's when I wonder if they really accept sexism like that.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 01:06 PM   #145
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 03:50 PM
I think a lot of women (and men) will play into the roles they think will get them ahead. Although it is opportunistic in either way, I often wonder how much self-awareness goes into the taking on of roles. Do they buy into it or do they know they are playing a part?

I think part of Pearl's earlier post dealt too with whether or not women are sexist toward men. I think they are. I think at this point it is significantly less harmful overall than sexism toward women because of the power structure, but I also think it is hurtful to the individual men who are experiencing it. When a man faces genuine discrimination, I don't discard that because frankly, while mostly men make up the power structure, most men are not in that power structure.

I sometimes dismiss men because I think that they don't understand this or this is not their skill or varying other perceived skill sets. For example, I'm probably naturally less honest with most men than I am with women. I have to step back and monitor myself. Why am I behaving like this? I don't show vulnerability to men. I do to women. On the other hand, I often nurture men more than I do women. Now is that showing a preference to men or is that showing an unconscious disrespect toward men--that they need more nurturing? Even for someone who gets along quite well with both sexes and have managed to avoid being called a bitch most of the time, it's a complex linewalk.

I do often see an unconscious preference toward men when push comes to shove or when choice is at hand even among avowed feminists. It is something women need to consider as to why we discount ourselves so much even when we give each other lip service?
BonosSaint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 01:09 PM   #146
Blue Crack Addict
 
GirlsAloudFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 26,156
Local Time: 01:50 PM
Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
GirlsAloudFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 01:30 PM   #147
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonosSaint View Post
I think a lot of women (and men) will play into the roles they think will get them ahead. Although it is opportunistic in either way, I often wonder how much self-awareness goes into the taking on of roles. Do they buy into it or do they know they are playing a part?
Like I said, if they play the part to get a promotion or experience, and then go onto a better company, then they played a role. But if they stay at the place long after they achieved their goals, I would suspect they do buy into the sexist expectations. That, or there's something else about the company that they like.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 02:04 PM   #148
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Like I said, if they play the part to get a promotion or experience, and then go onto a better company, then they played a role. But if they stay at the place long after they achieved their goals, I would suspect they do buy into the sexist expectations. That, or there's something else about the company that they like.
Agreed.

I do wonder how much self-awareness goes on in some people anyway. So much disconnect between talk and behavior.
BonosSaint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 02:05 PM   #149
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan View Post
Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
Haven't seen either. So I will defer to those who have.
BonosSaint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 02:41 PM   #150
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan View Post
Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonosSaint View Post
Haven't seen either. So I will defer to those who have.

GAF, what is your idea of feminism? What examples can you give that GoT and Girls display feminism in every episode?
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 03:41 PM   #151
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,600
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan View Post
Would I be wrong in saying that feminism is very much alive and relevant on cable television?

Uber popular HBO programs like GAME OF THRONES and GIRLS display it every episode.
Very wrong
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #152
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,729
Local Time: 02:50 PM
What about Girls is feminist?
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:17 PM   #153
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,060
Local Time: 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
What about Girls is feminist?

I find her critiques of porn somewhat feminist.
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 05:40 PM   #154
Blue Crack Addict
 
GirlsAloudFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Chicago
Posts: 26,156
Local Time: 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
GAF, what is your idea of feminism? What examples can you give that GoT and Girls display feminism in every episode?
I have no idea what the textbook definition of feminism is. I'm basically an idiot.

But I am of the mind that women are better than men. It's a blanket statement, sure, but I think it's true for the most part. Women are better and more powerful than men.

THRONES shows this all the time. It's one of the prevailing themes of the show, if not the prevailing theme. Maybe GIRLS is a bit of a stretch, but I was in fact thinking of the pornography angle that Irvine mentions.

Lena Dunham has been quoted as saying that the sex scenes portrayed on GIRLS are an attempt to "counteract a skewed idea of sex created by the proliferation of porn".

Anyway. Women are better than men. It's just true. Men are the worst.
GirlsAloudFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 06:36 PM   #155
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,060
Local Time: 02:50 PM
Also, Lena Dunham makes it a point to put her very average naked body on screen frequently (which upsets deep greatly), and she still gets to have sex with someone as gorgeous as Patrick Wilson. It seems a direct rebuttal to the average guy/hot girl dynamic there's so much if.
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 06:47 PM   #156
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,729
Local Time: 02:50 PM
To me, to tie this to feminism you'd have to argue that it's a form of sexual empowerment for an average looking woman to have sex with a hot guy. Just not sure that I'm quite there yet.
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:01 PM   #157
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
jeevey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Rue St. Divine
Posts: 4,096
Local Time: 02:50 PM
There's been a TON written about Lena Dunham, Girls and feminism. A quick google of those words will bring up a flood of material.

It gets cheered for the MC pursuing satisfying sex with an more attractive older man (that's the feminist part, antitram- that instead of being grateful just to be with him, she makes sure that he satisfies her) and booed for featuring borderline dub/con sex (the famous 'on her hands and knees' scene.) If nothing else it's a feminist show because it's creatively controlled by a young woman writing about her own experience, rather than a committee of old white dudes writing what they think the experience of a woman in her 20s must be. When criticized about the mediocre sex her characters experience, Dunham replied, "Um, if there's anybody writing in television who knows what kind of sex women in their 20's are having these days, I think it's me." That kind of claim to the legitimacy of her own voice is undeniably feminist.
jeevey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:45 PM   #158
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlsAloudFan View Post
THRONES shows this all the time. It's one of the prevailing themes of the show, if not the prevailing theme. Maybe GIRLS is a bit of a stretch, but I was in fact thinking of the pornography angle that Irvine mentions.
Oh yeah. Showing their boobs for the sake of straight men is female power

This article reflects my attitude to prevalent female nudity on TV:

Quote:
The dudes, meanwhile, get more leeway. I'm not saying that there aren't super-hot guys that get a lot of shirtless time, but there's also plenty of scenes revolving around naked politics that don't star the Khal Drogos or Gendrys. A male character can have a little bit of a potbelly in a shirtless scene and still be taken seriously as an agent of power and change in his universe; when a female character does it, she gets lambasted for daring to assault our poor, defenseless eyeballs.

Maybe this is just my own internalized sexism. But guys' onscreen nudity always gives me the impression of being so deliberate, like creators sat back and debated whether or not his dong was necessary for plotting purposes. By contrast, female nudity comes off as almost knee-jerk, like of course a woman's sexual appeal (or lack thereof) would have to be an integral part of her character. Like a female character couldn't be smart and wicked and badass without visually proving to us that she has a smokin' hot body to boot.

Audiences seem way more willing to grant that a male character can have more to offer a plot than just his hot bod; a naked female character (and whatever actress plays her) tends to get reduced outside of the show to her breasts first, brain second. (Link NSFW)

There are exceptions to every rule, obviously. I'm sure that there are shows out there that star a lot of women being fully-clothed and badass while nubile young athletes lounge at their feet and idly thumb their own abdominal muscles. Generally speaking, though, I haven't seen many. (Also, um, if that specific show I just described exists, please direct me to it post-haste.)

In a perfect world, I would be all for TV shows and movies that showcase all manner of naked-ass bodies, behaving realistically and interestingly and in ways separate from and integral to the plot. But until that happens, I'd rather push for no boobs at all.
If I See Another Bare Breast on Television, I'm Going to Scream | xoJane

It is true that for a woman to express her sexuality or femininity, she has to show skin. It's been that way for long time. Just look at red carpet events like the Oscars or such. The women compete on who looks the sexiest whether by showing some or a lot of skin, while men uniformally wear tuxedoes that cover up their bodies. Yet, a man can express his sexuality and masculinity simply by how he presents himself: his voice, his stare, his stance. A woman has to show her cleavage, her legs, and in some cases, highly suggest she is not even wearing a thong. Why can't the way a woman carries herself be enough? By society saying that a woman needs to show skin in order to be a sexual being, you are putting her worth on her body rather than her confidence and personality.

I know I sound like a staunch conservative here, but there is some truth to what they say. I'm definitely not saying we should all wear burqas or boring outfits like Orthodox Jewish women wear. But honestly, can't the way we present ourselves be enough to be sexy? Many women say feeling sexy comes from within, not by how much of their bodies they show.
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 09:58 PM   #159
Blue Crack Distributor
 
bono_212's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 83,099
Local Time: 11:50 AM
Pearl... Come on.... Do you know who you're talking to? Don't fight it, just let him roll.
__________________
bono_212 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2013, 10:46 PM   #160
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,741
Local Time: 03:50 PM
Me posting that article and commenting on it was in no way directed to GAF. It was a way of continuing the discussion of feminism, a sort of "while we are on the subject..."

Honestly, do you really think I take GAF seriously?
__________________

Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×