Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Pearl]

I once knew a right-wing atheist. He didn't believe in God, yet believed all the Obama conspiracies and despised liberals. He also was racially insensitive, and made a few sexist and anti-Semitic remarks.

[BonosSaint]

I'm pretty sure the only qualification for atheism is not to believe in a god of whatever stripe. It doesn't require any other characteristic. Why would anyone infer one?

[LJT]

Just another example the Socialist Worker's Party here in the UK were involved in covering up rape allegations.

Ranks of the Socialist Workers Party are split over handling of rape allegation - UK Politics - UK - The Independent

And a blog that details things a bit more:

Sexism within the SWP: Lessons Unlearned |

This is the UK's largest far left party.

Also side not the fawning of the left in general over Assange. George Galloway former Labour MP now leader of the leftist Respect party, he's another sexist git.

[Vlad n U 2]

Yeah, they're really quite pathetic but from what I understand the party is collapsing as a result, and as it should.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by BonosSaint

I'm pretty sure the only qualification for atheism is not to believe in a god of whatever stripe. It doesn't require any other characteristic. Why would anyone infer one?

Because the GOP is so heavily tied to Christianity these days?

[BonosSaint]

Because the GOP is so heavily tied to Christianity these days?

Seems that would be a logical error although, I guess. an easy enough mistake to make.
However, the GOP's misuse of Christianity does not bestow "sainthood" (so to speak) on the atheist. Atheism does not eliminate (nor cause) character flaws. It's a descriptive that only deserves so much weight when judging the individual's character.

I never believe what someone says. I don't attach much importance to what he/she believes. I only believe what they do.

[jeevey]

I'm taking a gender studies class this semester and for my first assignment was asked solicit answers to the question, "What is feminism?" These are your own personal thoughts, not subject to debate. It you'd like to add further thoughts about what you find important or unimportant, helpful or unhelpful about the term, the concept, or the movement those are welcome too.

[LJT]

Feminism is about bringing balance to the force.

On a serious note its about fixing the historical inequalities that continue to be perpetuated against women. Feminism though to me isn't feminism without discussing class and race, while also breaking down gender essentialism. Women of different classes and race have very different experiences, which certain strands of feminism are either hostile to or ignorant of. For instance a lot of black women feel very disenfranchised by mainstream feminism, hence some have settled for womanism as their prefered term. For the life of me I can never understand so called feminists who are very anti the trans community.

I suppose what i'm really saying is feminism must be intersectional or it's not feminist at all. It needs a little Marxism to but that's a personal slant

And I suppose it would be useful to know, this is the opinion of a white bloke.

[jeevey]

That is useful! If people would like to include personal info that you think is relevant like race and class you could do that here or PM answers to me if you prefer. Also if you want to include formative experiences that really shaped your thoughts or feelings about the subject that's great too.

[LJT]

Oh and I guess i'm middle class, though I tend to view things from a more working class perspective. Mum came from a very poor background, and I grew up in an area where most people were on welfare.

I would say my social awareness of feminism is born out of being from Northern Ireland. Most people there are sort of very politically aware even if it is sectarian for the most part, such as my inequality is worse than yours yada yada. Anyway I think the troubles and stuff have made me a bit more sensitive to inequalities and most of the political parties on my side of the fence, Sinn Fein and the Social Democratic and Labour Party lean to the left. Sinn Fein itself is pro-choice for instance even though it's the biggest supported party of Catholics in the north, where the other side, the unionists tend to draw their support from our own mini-bible belt, very anti abbortion and very traditionalist.

So my nebulous awareness of feminism probably begins there. But I would say my views on it have become much more strident and better formed in the last year, mainly because i've just read more about it. I suppose that is my privilege, I can just read and learn by my choice, unlike of course most women who have to live feminism or find some way to fit in with the patriarchy.

[cobl04]

Would like to know what people think of this article. Clementine Ford is what I like to call a militant feminist. One time, she posted a screenshot of TheAge.com.au (one of our biggest daily news sites) and complained at the lack of women featured in photos on the front page compared to men. I refreshed the website five hours later and the ratio of women to men was 1:1. Another time, she rallied against the Australian Football League and the Geelong Football Club because some idiot on Twitter with the word 'Geelong' in his profile pic said something like "I hope you get raped" or "you're too ugly to be raped" or something along those lines. She demanded that the club and the league come out and ban this man from attending football for the rest of his life, that the club revoke his membership (no way of telling if he was even a member) and issue a statement about seriously the league/club takes violence against women.

What does it mean to be a 'good man'?

I’m just going to throw this out there because, as far as provocative truth bombs go, it’s been ticking away for too long.

The universal male decency we keep hearing about is largely a myth.

Sure, most men might not be bad. But it takes more than ‘not being bad’ to be ‘actually good’.

Let me backtrack a minute.

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Whenever conversation is raised about patriarchy, violence and the lack of equality that still permeates our society, I find myself inundated with messages or comments from men offended by the discussion of male perpetrated violence. Most men, they take ostentatious pains to remind me, are ‘decent’ - so why do I insist on tarring all of them with the same brush? It’s not fair and it’s not true. If I want their ongoing support, I had jolly well better start being nicer to them.

...

No, apparently all it takes to be considered a ‘decent bloke’ is to take an each way bet at doing nothing - nothing to perpetuate oppression, and nothing to stop it. Worse, such ‘decent blokes’ want to be rewarded for this lack of action, an expectation that not-so-subtly reveals the very same entitlement that serves to perpetuate gender inequality. Translated, what they’re really saying is, “Praise me, because I have refrained from behaving in a way both you and I know I could get away with if I wanted to. Please may I have my cookie now? Actually, just give it to me.”

...

So it is argued that we cannot be racist because even though we make sweeping generalisations about the mysterious ways of non-white folk, we don’t burn crosses on their front lawn; that we cannot be homophobic, because even though we don’t think gay people ought to be allowed to marry and ‘no one wants to see that in public’, we don’t want them imprisoned; and that we cannot possibly be misogynists, because even though we think women should take more care with what they’re wearing and we laugh when someone tells a sexist joke because humour makes the world go round and think feminists have gone too far, we don’t personally beat up women or sexually assault them. (Note: I use ‘we’ to refer generically to people who lucked out in the social privileges lottery. For race and economic status, I include myself in this category.)

...

Because, Good Men, every time do nothing in response to tired sexist jokes or victim blaming or discussions of ‘provocation’ in regards to gendered assault, you’re actually supporting the system that continues to oppress women. Sure, you may not be telling the joke (although plenty of ‘decent blokes’ have an arsenal of those). You may not have actually committed the sexual assault. You may not be beating your partner. But your silence and inaction condones these things in the minds of those other ordinary people who mistake the lack of condemnation for a green light. Do you know one of the reasons it’s not okay to laugh at jokes about rape victims? It’s not just because it’s extremely insensitive not to mention despicable - it’s because treating rape and its victims like they are fodder for humour tells perpetrators that what they did wasn’t really that bad.

Unless you are vigilant every day about standing against gender discrimination and misogyny - and that means stepping up, being a proactive bystander and speaking out against ideas and behaviours that perpetuate misogyny - then I’m sorry to tell you that you are not a decent, good bloke. And when you threaten to withdraw your support because you’ve been made to feel bad, all you’re doing is reasserting your own socially gifted dominance.

And frankly, that doesn’t sound very decent to me. You might not be a bad man - but unless you’re doing something to challenge and change the world we live in for the better, you’re not a good one either. All you are is an ordinary person, doing nothing and holding your hand out for a cookie that you do not deserve.

She makes some salient points here, I especially like the comparison to homophobia - I've heard people say things like "look how homophobic Uganda is! we're not like that! what are gays complaining about!"

But there is an implication here that if I don't spend every second of the rest of my life seeking out and smashing down every single example of sexism or misogyny from now until the day I die, I'm a shit person. I don't have to be a feminist to die a good person. And I'm sorry, but it's articles like this that don't help the cause. I do call it sexism and misogyny when I see it. But I'd rather go and play lawn bowls tonight then find a march in support of closing the gender wage gap. And that doesn't make me a bad person.

[Vlad n U 2]

Not a surprising opinion, given it doesn't affect you. That you wouldn't care about the gender wage gap suggests that you don't really care about women and their struggles, no?

[cobl04]

I do like you Vlad, but I don't like how you read my posts and make your own conclusions. I do care about the gender wage gap. One of my best friends writes papers about it. (Ughhh I just pulled the "some of my best friends..." line, forgive me father for I have sinned.) I think it's horrible that women don't get paid the same as men in a lot of professions, and certainly I don't believe that's due to any deficiencies in women, "women's own incompetency", as Ford puts it. I'm proud to be in a workplace where women hold a number of high positions, and I think the ratio of workers here would be split just about evenly, might even be more women than men.

But I don't have to put my life on hold, quit my job, stop everything I enjoy doing, and spend every waking hour ensuring that women become a little bit more equal with every passing second. It's ridiculous. The point I'm making is it's a very black-and-white, all-or-nothing stance. You can't view things in extremes. I'm a shit person because I'm going to play lawn bowls tonight rather then stand up for sexism? I'm only a good person if my entire life is dedicated to the cause of making sure men and women are equal? Get outta here.

[Vlad n U 2]

I don't think I meant it in that way, perhaps I came off more harsh than I had realised.

[cobl04]

I wasn't referring to you in my second par there, by the way, just talking in generalities.

Jeevey if you see this I would like to see your response to the article!

[KhanadaRhodes]

i'll just say people who are militant anything are probably not going to convert a lot of people to their way of thinking in my experience. i know at least for me, if someone gets in my face and starts banging on about something and how i have to think this and that...no. i'm a person of free will, i don't have to do anything. so please do not tell me what i do and don't have to do (this is just a general post, not directed at anyone here obviously).

i'm a feminist, and i've been discriminated against in the workplace. i've been in positions where i've been passed over for promotions or i've had proof that males that have had as much (or less) experience than me have made more money than me. i've been sexually harassed and had (male) bosses not give a fuck. i've been bullied. i've had female bosses pull the tough guy act on me and think they have to be a huge bitch because they're female and they have to prove they're on par with the male management. i'm not trying to start a pissing contest, i'm just saying i have an idea of what it's like to be discriminated against as a woman.

but screaming in some stranger's face that he needs to...what, exactly? vote for an issue that isn't even on the ballot? harass a politician? the phrase "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" comes to mind. not to mention out of all of the things i'd like to see changed in this country, not to mention my state, that is not my #1 priority at the moment. yes i'd love equal pay and discrimination to stop, but there's heaps of other things i want to happen first. when you make a list, something has to be first.

[jeevey]

Cob, I don't have time for a deep read of the article just now . I'll just note first that I distrust the use of the phrase "militant" anything other than actual militas, because it's almost always a language tool used by opponents to obscure the actual message being spoken. If you think she's over the top or too pushy that's fine, but militant is almost certainly not the right word unless she's actually prescribing organized violence.

And then I'll say that I think the very most important thing any privileged person (ie the white, the straight, or the male person in the room) can do is to call out behavior when it happens. If you don't want to be lumped in with 'that guy', then don't be the guy who chuckles uncomfortably and looks away. A great example is gvox speaking out about ozeeko's bitch-choking comments last week. He didn't need to get super long winded and political about it, he just said "Dude, that is wrong. Not cool." (And gvox, if you read this, you're my hero.) So while organizational response can be debated, I think it's 100% true that if every man who thinks "too ugly to be raped" comments are disgusting and wrong said so every time they happened, there would be a whole lot less of them in the world, guys who make them would understand that they are an aberration, not the norm, and women would live in a lot less hostile climate.

Generally speaking, people who do not feel like they may come under attack at any time without backup are a lot less defensive, anxious, angry, frustrated, alienated, protective and so on, and are a lot more fun to be around, productive and available for good conversation, curing cancer and general shenanigans. So there are some pretty compelling reasons for men to speak out, if they can get over whatever holds them back from being the one to do it.

[Pearl]

I agree that fighting fire with fire does not always work. It may feel like it would, because it gets a lot off someone's chest. But it can very easily intimidate or anger someone and make them hold on to whatever it is that they're holding on to tighter. So if I were to tell a guy that saying a girl is too ugly to be raped, that he is the lowest piece of shit around, of course he won't stop and think about what he is saying. He'll just laugh and keep going.

Sometimes you have to find their sensitive spot, so to speak. Unfortunately, even saying "would you say that your mother/sister/daughter?" is lame because any guy who says something vulgar to a woman will also be an asshole to his female family members. Some guys aren't worth correcting even if we women are seething. We can just hope their bros will tell them that its not cool to mistreat and even harass women. We can also hope those guys wouldn't blow off those friends for not being real men or whatever.

But I'm also hopeful that as time goes on, misogynists will fade out as more boys are raised to treat women with respect. However, come to think of it, we women have to give boys a reason to treat us with respect. Some misogynists I've known had mothers who should've been reported to social services, or at least did a poor job parenting them.

[BonosSaint]

I don't expect anyone to speak up against every instance of sexism, racism, homophobia, etc. You would be spending your life doing that. Not all feminists are watching for every slight. I watch the pattern.

I do find it somewhat odd that we are often encouraged to speak out on other forms of discrimination--to make that a cause whether we are personally affected or not--in fact even chastised often enough for not doing so--except when it comes to women. I think that is the "other" factor women deal with all the time. For so many numbers, we are under the radar. So we talk sometimes.

Women are often the greatest personal and public defenders of the marginalized (when we are not doing the marginalizing--I don't turn a blind eye to mean girls) and often the least supported when push comes to shove.

I don't deal with groups. I'd rather deal with an individual. I want to understand why I am so different to some people, why I'm lesser, why people assign attributes to me when they don't even know me.

I'm always pleasantly surprised when people exceed my expectations.

[LJT]

Militant is so often the word used to describe people who often have perfectly good reason to be angry at the way things are. You have the angry black man, the dragon lady etc.

We probably too often have a laissez faire approach to such issues. Saying you are a decent bloke, person, woman, black, white etc whatever in the grand scheme of things really means nothing if you don't call out injustice when you see it happening. As a white guy I only have to do nothing to receive most of the benefits of society as it currently is. The power structures that be are not going to change just by being decent it will probably take a much more proactive response from all included.