Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from your own personal experience, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the female perspective on this issue

I agree. That's one of the reasons I dare step into these threads.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

I agree. That's one of the reasons I dare step into these threads.

I don't understand what you're talking about. You say here you dare to come here to understand the female perspective, yet your posts reek of an unwillingness to understand what's it like for a woman and an insistence on seeing the world from your own narrow male perspective.

You seem threatened by feminism of any kind, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.

Your posts in this thread are getting painful to read.

[jeevey]

Aeon's relentless desire to turn every conversation about women and feminism into a conversation about men seems to have reached it peak right about here.

it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.

Seriously. Way to blow your cover wide open. Okay, you believe that feminism is harmful to men. Gotcha. Now move it along folks, nothin more to see here. If these

And what is the ultimate solution here? Matriarchy or equality? If matriarchy, how would society be better? If equality - what does gender equality look like to you? Is it more than legal equality? Are genders still allowed to be unique, yet remain equal in your eyes?

were sincere questions I would answer them. But I think that if they were sincere they would have appeared considerably earlier in this thread, not as part of an attempt to deflect attention from a massive downward spiral.

You seem threatened by feminism of any kind, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

This seems to be the case and I do wonder why you keep coming back to this thread, clearly not to gain perspective or share meaningful conversation, but to critique and derail? There are men's movement threads all over reddit where you would find lots of sympathetic company.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Translation: your personal experience means everything and mine means nothing. Which of course - only highlights the danger of bringing in subjective data into a discussion. I guess if we had the time, we could take a worldwide poll of the "things men say about women"...

In the meantime, if you're getting your data from cartoons and memes, then it's highly unlikely you're ever going to empathize with the male perspective on this issue.

So because it's my personal experience it doesn't count for shit?


You said men DO NOT say these kind of things.

I give you a personal example that they DO.

Personal experience is not the relevant factor here. THe factor is that men DO say these things. You just happen to be lucky to not encounter them. Does that mean you can just turn a blind eye to these things and pretend they don't happen?



Empathising with male perspective on the issue? Where was the male empathy when they were relentlessly bullying me for being 'different'?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by jeevey

This seems to be the case and I do wonder why you keep coming back to this thread, clearly not to gain perspective or share meaningful conversation, but to critique and derail?

Don't you feel you learn something when you're thinking is challenged? Or - if you're thinking isn't challenged, at least to hear a different point of view?

I do like reddit for some topics (baseball, futurology, technology...), but I prefer Interference for social and political discussions. One the main reasons I like it here is because of the occasional debate.

I think Anitram did an excellent job in her discussion on abortion. I learned something there. And I'm learning from you. As I'm learning from Pearl and Galeongirl. I don't have to agree with you to learn from you.

I'm sure if you asked the women in my life if I were a bit chauvinistic - they would probably say "yes," at least a little. However - it's not a one or a zero. Meaning, I don't mistreat women and sincerely believe in equal treatment before the law. But I'm "old-fashioned" in that I still open the doors for women and I still stand up when a woman enters the room - lessons taught to me by grandmother.

We all have tendencies to categorize and define things in the most efficient way possible. We've evolved with that ability. The key to wisdom, of course, is to identify which thoughts are merely striving for efficiency vs. when they are actually pursuing/attaining truth.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Aeon's relentless desire to turn every conversation about women and feminism into a conversation about men seems to have reached it peak right about here.

How can you have a discussion against the "patriarchal system" if it does not include men?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

So because it's my personal experience it doesn't count for shit?

I conceded subjective experience is difficult to quantify.

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Does that mean you can just turn a blind eye to these things and pretend they don't happen?

People should not say mean things. In certain environments - saying such things will get you fired from your job. I just thought the cartoon was weak (as I think of propaganda).

Originally Posted by Galeongirl

Empathising with male perspective on the issue? Where was the male empathy when they were relentlessly bullying me for being 'different'?

So - what of the men that did not bully you? Can you empathize with their perspective?

[LJT]

Just on the fake geek girl alone, it's painfully apparent guys often see women as invaders to what they consider their male only culture. The vitriol aimed at Anita Sarkeesian for her feminist critique of games is quite shameful. You only need to step into any online game to hear how many young males treat gamers known to be female, from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft.

At the big comic con events and stuff it is also blatantly apparent how men treat women as lesser parts of that community from the booth babes to treating female journalists attending as merely hired help at the event. Anyway as an example of all this crap, this article kinda sums up some male prejudice at least in the gamer section of geekdom.

3 Ways Women Have Ruined Video Games

I've been following this website for a while and I hope to god it's just a bunch of trolls who run it, but even so many of the views expressed I have heard from the horse's mouth as well.

[Galeongirl]

Originally Posted by AEON

I conceded subjective experience is difficult to quantify.

People should not say mean things. In certain environments - saying such things will get you fired from your job. I just though the cartoon was weak (as I think of propaganda).


So - what of the men that did not bully you? Can you empathize with their perspective?

Yeah they shouldn't say mean things, yet kids still do. Bullying still happens everywhere, and victims are both male and female. Though I have to admit that bullying is rather different with the genders. The males were rude and mean to me, yet the girls are less physical, they're more excluding you from events, it's the more bitchy thing to do.

I can empathize with men that don't bully me, yes. In fact, I used to have more male friends than female until recently. Due to my nature I am usually considered one of the guys.

Originally Posted by LJT

Just on the fake geek girl alone, it's painfully apparent guys often see women as invaders to what they consider their male only culture. The vitriol aimed at Anita Sarkeesian for her feminist critique of games is quite shameful. You only need to step into any online game to hear how many young males treat gamers known to be female, from Call of Duty to World of Warcraft.

At the big comic con events and stuff it is also blatantly apparent how men treat women as lesser parts of that community from the booth babes to treating female journalists attending as merely hired help at the event. Anyway as an example of all this crap, this article kinda sums up some male prejudice at least in the gamer section of geekdom.

3 Ways Women Have Ruined Video Games

I've been following this website for a while and I hope to god it's just a bunch of trolls who run it, but even so many of the views expressed I have heard from the horse's mouth as well.

Yeah, true. I used to play Pokemon online(yeah yeah, I know) on servers, and as soon as guys found out I was female you'd have half of them trying to cyber you, and the other half claimgin you're lying and just doing it for the attention(calling you an attentionwhore if you will). It was quite baffling.
Luckily it does not occur with all games, as I am an avid gamer. Don't play COD or WOW though. It's not all women that get badly treated there, the insults flying around to less skilled players are horrible.

There's even a saying that "women on the internet don't exist".

Guess the gamer guys feel threatened that it's not just guys gaming anymore. I really do not understand why else you'd treat others like that. Then again I don't understand the unnecessary insult and rudeness towards other players in general either.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by LJT

I've been following this website for a while and I hope to god it's just a bunch of trolls who run it,

After reading that article and looking at a few links - I would say "trolls" is a safe bet.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by LJT

Just on the fake geek girl alone, it's painfully apparent guys often see women as invaders to what they consider their male only culture.

Any such attitude is weak minded. I won't argue that.

I did play WoW for many years (my wife played too). Yes, I came across some rudeness - but that was mostly directed toward "noobs" than anything else.

An arrogant jerk will say anything they think will be hurtful. Everyone annoys them for one reason or another.

However, (SUBJECTIVE EXAMPLE WARNING) I've know several of my IT co-workers that married female gamers. Some of them actually met playing games online. I don't perceive a general disgust toward female gamers - in fact, it was something the males would brag about. In the same way that some men would say how awesome it is that their wife was "into sports."

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Don't you feel you learn something when you're thinking is challenged? Or - if you're thinking isn't challenged, at least to hear a different point of view?

I do like reddit for some topics (baseball, futurology, technology...), but I prefer Interference for social and political discussions. One the main reasons I like it here is because of the occasional debate.

I think Anitram did an excellent job in her discussion on abortion. I learned something there. And I'm learning from you. As I'm learning from Pearl and Galeongirl. I don't have to agree with you to learn from you.

I'm sure if you asked the women in my life if I were a bit chauvinistic - they would probably say "yes," at least a little. However - it's not a one or a zero. Meaning, I don't mistreat women and sincerely believe in equal treatment before the law. But I'm "old-fashioned" in that I still open the doors for women and I still stand up when a woman enters the room - lessons taught to me by grandmother.

We all have tendencies to categorize and define things in the most efficient way possible. We've evolved with that ability. The key to wisdom, of course, is to identify which thoughts are merely striving for efficiency vs. when they are actually pursuing/attaining truth.

AEON, I don't get the impression you are learning anything. It's like whenever you see the word feminism, or anything pertaining to it, including a simple cartoon, you get into attacking mode and treat it like its all man-hating and man-bashing. That very cartoon that you are so upset about lays out what feminism really is, and yet you failed to register that.

I do think you are threatened by anything related to feminism. Turning each discussion, however small, into a male-oriented discussion and denouncing any dismay we women have toward sexism as propaganda just shows this.

If you really want to learn, you need to put yourself in our shoes. Start with that if you really want to learn, not complain.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

That very cartoon that you are so upset about lays out what feminism really is, and yet you failed to register that.

Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).

Originally Posted by Pearl

I do think you are threatened by anything related to feminism.

This phrase gets repeated often - what do you mean by threatened? There is nothing I can think of that a feminist through feminism could take from me.

Originally Posted by Pearl

Turning each discussion, however small, into a male-oriented discussion and denouncing any dismay we women have toward sexism as propaganda just shows this.

I only claimed the cartoon was propaganda - which it is.

Wikipedia - Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).

This phrase gets repeated often - what do you mean by threatened? There is nothing I can think of that a feminist through feminism could take from me.

I only claimed the cartoon was propaganda - which it is.

I get the impression that you, and some other men, see feminism as an attack on masculinity. Meaning, when a woman asserts her right to be respected, socially and legally, many men think she's got some nerve to do that. Some men despise feminists because we dare to say that men aren't as great as they think they are, and they have hurt us knowingly or unknowingly. It also forces a man to rethink his place in the world. This sort of mindset is both subconscious and conscious, depending on the guy.

[jeevey]

Aside from the fact that I wish it was, there isn't much on the return of kings site to indicate that it's satire. The fact that all the commenters take it quite seriously makes me think that it's not.

[LJT]

Originally Posted by AEON

Any such attitude is weak minded. I won't argue that.

I did play WoW for many years (my wife played too). Yes, I came across some rudeness - but that was mostly directed toward "noobs" than anything else.

An arrogant jerk will say anything they think will be hurtful. Everyone annoys them for one reason or another.

However, (SUBJECTIVE EXAMPLE WARNING) I've know several of my IT co-workers that married female gamers. Some of them actually met playing games online. I don't perceive a general disgust toward female gamers - in fact, it was something the males would brag about. In the same way that some men would say how awesome it is that their wife was "into sports."

No one is stating that it is all men that are anti women in the gaming community. We tend to surround ourselves with like-minded people, hence i'm not prone to hang out with other guys gamers or not who are going to be openly sexist to women.

Do you not wonder why though your experience as a bloke is different to the women's here? (for that matter us other blokes as well). Is their experience invalid because it doesn't match yours? Does your experience of this matter more than there's? Are you the target of sexism in general in society? I wouldn't say you are hence one of the reasons of your differing experience.

Are you saying that their experience of this is wrong? Is it that they have a persecution complex? They're lying? Exaggerating for attention? Promoting a feminist agenda to the detriment of men? I'm not saying that is how your thinking, but I would ask you why you come across as so strongly against women's opinions on their own experiences...Is it not more likely they are sharing a common experience of how they are regularly treated?

Anyway a couple of good articles from a games website I follow, it's relatively big over here in the UK. RockPaperShotgun often tackles the social issues in gaming as well as just gaming itself.

First one is on the #1reasonwhy campaign on why there weren't more women in the game industry. How female devs are treated, how journalists are treated etc.

#1ReasonWhy We Are All Responsible | Rock, Paper, Shotgun

Another one on general sexism in gaming.

Misogyny, Sexism and why RPS isn't Shutting Up

Lastly the recent experience of a female dev trying to release a game based around depression and the comments she faced on that ranging from women don't know what depression is, they can't relate, how can she complain she would never be with someone who had real depression etc.

Female Game Developers Can't Even Submit A Game To Greenlight Without Receiving Harassment - Indie Statik

Interesting reads anyway, small disclaimer I am part of a RockPaperShotgun guilld in Guild Wars 2

[LJT]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Aside from the fact that I wish it was, there isn't much on the return of kings site to indicate that it's satire. The fact that all the commenters take it quite seriously makes me think that it's not.

It's question of when does trolling cross the line. Say racist/communist comments in an article about Obama, yeah trolling. Creating a website and continually maintaining and updating it, is a bit more sinister.

[jeevey]

Yes, it fails to register because I think it misrepresents male thinking (with a few exceptions).

That's because feminism is not primarily about men. It's primarily an attempt to critique and redress a structural imbalance of power that's embedded in our society. Your interest in continually recentering the discussion around men insures that you will not gain any real insight into the experience of women as affected by patriarchy, or ever have a part in correcting the imbalances that exist around you. It seems like every time a woman has something to say about her experience as a woman you immediately reframe the discussion to the male point of view rather than just, you know, listening and understanding.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by LJT

It's question of when does trolling cross the line. Say racist/communist comments in an article about Obama, yeah trolling. Creating a website and continually maintaining and updating it, is a bit more sinister.

I'm not sure that the word troll is very helpful. It indicates that the views expressed are made for effect, not because the troll honestly believes it. But the journalism I've seen around internet sexism trolls seems to indicate that they both believe it AND are saying it for effect. I think satire is a better metric. Is this piece asserting an offensive or controversial view in order to obliquely criticize or subvert that view? If not then I just call it sexist assholery.