Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Why are you curious about what we women think?

Should I not be?

[AEON]

It seems most women were not to pleased with the performance.

Outraged parents: Why Miley Cyrus' performance sets girls and women back

But here's a comment defending Miley...

"The fact that she doesn't play the victim and shows that girls can be as aggressive and bad in many ways might in some twisted way pave the way for (women) to play in a more level field with men,"

[Irvine511]

i've found it's difficult to dance to "Blurred Lines" and not look crazy.

[iron yuppie]

"The fact that she doesn't play the victim and shows that girls can be as aggressive and bad in many ways might in some twisted way pave the way for (women) to play in a more level field with men,"

This is quite the generous interpretation. There are ways for women to own their sexuality in a way that is empowering; pandering to the raunchy-chic fad in as pompous and self-aggrandizing a manner as possible is certainly not one of them. People like Miley and Britney Spears are not just detriments to feminism, but to human society as a whole. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

Should I not be?

No, I was curious because you've made comments before about protecting teen girls from teen boys, and you have a conservative attitude toward sex. So basically, I'm wondering what you are thinking about Miley's act. I hope you're not thinking the world is at end over this.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

This is quite the generous interpretation. There are ways for women to own their sexuality in a way that is empowering; pandering to the raunchy-chic fad in as pompous and self-aggrandizing a manner as possible is certainly not one of them. People like Miley and Britney Spears are not just detriments to feminism, but to human society as a whole. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Exactly, and I didn't find that harsh at all. Miley is handling her sexuality in a immature way (how many times does she have to have her tongue hang out?) like she has no idea what it means.

[Pearl]

The only thing feminist I could think of about Miley's act is that it is really unfair that in order to be sexual, a woman has to be as naked as possible. Meanwhile a man can be fully clothed - like Robin Thicke - and still be seen as sexual. It is as though a woman can only be a sexual being if she's a piece of meat, instead of letting her sexy personality shine through. Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

So basically, I'm wondering what you are thinking about Miley's act. I hope you're not thinking the world is at end over this.

But that isn't what you asked.. You asked me, "Why are you curious about what we women think?"

However, since you're also curious about my opinion on Miley's act - it is about the same as Iron Yuppie.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Pearl

The only thing feminist I could think of about Miley's act is that it is really unfair that in order to be sexual, a woman has to be as naked as possible. Meanwhile a man can be fully clothed - like Robin Thicke - and still be seen as sexual. It is as though a woman can only be a sexual being if she's a piece of meat, instead of letting her sexy personality shine through. Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

I was always attracted to Lilith from Cheers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbyzC07HLow

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by AEON

My opinion on the Miley's act is about the same as Iron Yuppie.

Which is fine with me.

One person I think is a good example of having a sexy personality yet being influenced by what society says about women being sexy is the actress Olivia Munn. I can see why a lot of guys like her. She's funny, intelligent, and confident. She also seems like the type who would play video games or cheer on a football team during the Super Bowl, but the next day, go get a mani-pedi. A lot of guys like that. But sadly, she tends to wear skimpy clothes to award shows because she says she's expressing her sexy side. That's sad because she's already sexy enough by her personality. Wearing revealing clothes makes her look desperate, which is not sexy.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Unfortunately, many women, like Miley, don't realize this.

Maybe that realization is something that comes with age. There are plenty of women in middle age who bear little skin but nonetheless convey sensuality. Mariska Hargitay comes to mind.

[Irvine511]

this blows my mind:

The “Battle of the Sexes,” a 1973 tennis match between Billie Jean King and a former Grand Slam champion, was rigged by the mob, according to a new report.

The tennis match between King and the late Bobby Riggs, a former Wimbledon and U.S. Open champ, was a spectacle watched by millions around the world Sept. 20, 1973. More than 30,000 people packed the Houston Astrodome to see whether King, 29 at the time, could defeat a man.

King beat Riggs, who was 55 at the time of the match, 6-4, 6-3, 6-3. The win gave women’s tennis a huge boost in terms of respect and gender equality, but an ESPN “Outside the Lines” report says the whole match was fixed because Riggs owed mobsters more than $100,000 and threw the match to erase the debt.

Hal Shaw, who was an assistant golf pro at a Florida country club, says he overheard two infamous mobsters discussing Riggs months before the legendary match.

“They brought up the name of Bobby Riggs, and Riggs assured him that he would go in the tank, and he’ll make it look and appear that he’s trying his best but Billie Jean King was just overwhelming him,” Shaw told “Outside the Lines.”

ESPN’s Don Van Natta interviewed Shaw for the piece, which aired Sunday.

“I looked in his eyes, I heard him tell the story multiple times, the details were always the same,” Van Natta said. “I was not going to move forward with this story unless I believed him to be someone who was absolutely credible.”

In an interview with ESPN, King disputes Shaw’s account.

“I would bet my life that Bobby never had that discussion with them,” she said. “Bobby doesn’t get involved in mobsters.”

King also released a statement calling the entire story “ridiculous.”

“I was on the court with Bobby and I know he was not tanking the match. I could see in his eyes and body language he wanted to win,” she said.

“It was 40 years ago and I won the match and I am 100 percent sure Bobby wanted to win as badly as I did. Those who bet against me lost money but the result is the same today as it was 40 years ago.”

Riggs died in 1995 at the age of 77, but his son says his father knew people within the mob.

“Did he know mafia guys? Absolutely,” Larry Riggs said. “Is it possible they talked to him about doing it? Possible.”

Billie Jean King’s ‘Battle of the Sexes’ Win Reportedly Rigged - ABC News

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Maybe that realization is something that comes with age. There are plenty of women in middle age who bear little skin but nonetheless convey sensuality. Mariska Hargitay comes to mind.

This is true, but you also have 40 year old women dressing like they're 20 year old club goers. Some people just never learn

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by AEON

I'm curious what the women in FYM think of the Miley Cyrus' VMA gyrations. Does it help or hurt feminism?

I didn't see it (and that's fine with me). I read a lot of "slut shaming" about it, which is disappointing (but not surprising). Why can't a 20 year old be sexual? Big deal.

It's also possible to criticize it for just being a bad performance, and there's nothing to read into those comments.

I also read a lot of interesting comments from women who were more upset that she used women of color as little more than props in her act, which I think might be more worth the criticism than her (allegedly) shitty performance.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by corianderstem

I read a lot of "slut shaming" about it, which is disappointing (but not surprising). Why can't a 20 year old be sexual? Big deal.

I don't think the term "slut shaming" is applicable here (though I take your point that some commentators are engaging in it).

I wouldn't criticize her for sexual behavior made public, but rather for grotesquely parading a sort of desperate burlesque as though it is a poignant statement of maturity. It's strange to use the term "pretentious" in regard to Miley Cyrus, but I think it is appropriate in this case.

[Irvine511]

i think my issue was that it wasn't genuinely provocative, or even sexy. it looked a little crazy, a lot immature. probably a lot like Miley.

she should have just gone ahead and kissed Gaga on the mouth. would have been much more interesting.

i also agree with this opinion:

Dear Society,
If you think a woman in a tan vinyl bra and underwear, grabbing her crotch and grinding up on a dance partner is raunchy, trashy, and offensive but you don’t think her dance partner is raunchy, trashy, or offensive as he sings a song about “blurred” lines of consent and propagating rape culture, then you may want to reevaluate your acceptance of double standards and your belief in stereotypes about how men vs. women “should” and are “allowed” to behave.

Sincerely,
Dr. Jill

A sexologist’s two cents on the 2013 MTV VMAs - A Day in the Life of a Sexologist

but, golly, who knows, maybe Miley is several steps ahead of all of us:

So here's a fun theory: Was Cyrus's and Thicke's performance actually a thought-out response to "Blurred Lines" criticism? Even before the song hit No. 1, "Blurred Lines" and its oft-parodied video have been accused of treating women like objects and promoting rape culture with its "I know you want it" hook, physical aggression, and subtle messages about alcohol and consent. Cyrus's performance with Thicke played with several of these themes in a way that could be read as commentary--though, at best, failed commentary.

It would be easy to write off her performance as just looking to deliver shock value: Cyrus has openly professed her admiration for the Britney-Madonna-Christina smooching trinity of scandal that opened the awards show a decade ago, so it's possible that Miley was just being Miley to carry the torch of sexually provocative pop stars. That idea is also consistent with the message of "We Can't Stop," which kicks off her hip-hop makeover by warning it's Cyrus's party, and she can do what she wants. But from the way she introduced her performance--by reviving Saturday Night Live's's caricature of her with a doppelganger stand-in--it's clear that Cyrus is more self-aware than she perhaps gets credit for. And if there's anything we learned from Lady Gaga's "Applause" video, it's that pop stars responding to or parodying their own critiques is not out of the question.

At first glance, the performance doesn't appear all that different from the "Blurred Lines" video: Thicke is fully clothed in a Beetlejuice suit and barely moves; Cyrus is clad in a flesh-colored two-piece and struts around him. But from the moment she eagerly ripped off her furry-fantasy get-up, Cyrus not only embraced and amped-up her own sexualization, she threw it back in Thicke's face (and lap). She got right up in Thicke's mug to shout some of the most scrutinized lyrics in "Blurred Lines" ("tried to domesticate ya / but you're an animal"), and she didn't back down after he took over vocals. With a giant foam finger, the night's most famous prop, Cyrus ran her hand over his crotch before grinding and nuzzling against him, trying to objectify Thicke in the way the original video didn't.

The performance doesn't totally reverse the original "Blurred Lines" set up, but it did attempt the message of its most famous parody, a scene-for-scene, gender-swapped recreation by Seattle-based "boylesque" group Mod Carousel. The video went viral because it's an accurate and impressive mimicry, and because it has the same levity of the original minus the vague rapeyness. The parody, however, wasn't designed to foster hate for the Thicke video. According to Mod Carousel's YouTube description, the half-naked romps dreamed up in "Blurred Lines" could be great fun as long as all parties involved felt equally empowered. Accordingly, the video tries show the dolled-up men as equal participants in a way the original didn't achieve (despite the director's stated intentions). Mod Carousel argues that flipping the genders of a music video to demonstrate sexism usually does "everyone a disservice" by ridiculing the male form rather than actually trying to empower the women excluded--it's more punitive than restorative. The solution, they say, is to create a space "where objectifying men is more than alright and where women can be strong and sexy without negative repercussions."

That sounds exactly like the type of space Cyrus and Thicke tried to create last night--but that's obviously not how it came across to a lot of viewers. There were, in fact, plenty of negative repercussions for Cyrus, who was quickly labeled a slut by many anonymous Internet-goers and accused by the New York Times of "molesting" Thicke. If Cyrus was trying to send a message about her sexual autonomy, why wasn't she successful? One reason is what Salon's Daniel D'Daddario calls the "fake sex positivity" of her performance. For comparison: Christina Aguilera, whose own sexual and artistic expression ignited similar conversation a decade ago, challenged criticism and championed empowerment through her music. Cyrus, on the other hand, just appears to be the over-eager participant in Thicke-worshiping, not the subverter of his messages.

There are other reasons why the performance makes audiences cringe: For some, the age difference--she's 20 and getting called a slut, while he's 36, has a family, and is mostly getting off the hook--makes their interplay feel exploitative, even if she's initiating. To others, the aggressive degree to which she did initiate contact seemed like less-than-consensual activity instead of a playful move to level the playing field. And then there's Cyrus's troubling appropriation of black culture that pervades her album's promotional campaign despite mounting criticism of it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertain...ticism/279062/

[Pearl]

Well, plenty are upset with Robin Thicke's "Blurred Lines" song and video. There's been tons of complaints and controversy about that. And Miley was the main performer in that act, so Thicke would come second.

[iron yuppie]

Yeah, it does seem like Thicke has taken copious amounts of shit for that song/video.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Yeah, it does seem like Thicke has taken copious amounts of shit for that song/video.

Thicke wins the internet for the entire summer because of this. People won't shut up about it. Ca-ching

[Irvine511]

it's not often that i fully agree with Camile Paglia, of all people, but she pretty much nails it for me, despite the Madonna-pandering:

“Disgusting!” “Raunchy!” “Desperate!” So went the scathing reviews that poured in after once wholesome Disney star Miley Cyrus’ recent bizarre performance at the MTV Video Music Awards.

Bopping up and down the catwalk in hair-twist devil’s horns and a flesh-colored latex bikini, Cyrus lewdly wagged her tongue, tickled her crotch with a foam finger, shook her buttocks in the air and spanked a 6-ft. 7-in. black burlesque queen.

Most of the media backlash focused on Cyrus’ crass opportunism, which stole the show from Lady Gaga, normally no slouch in the foot-stamping look-at-me department. But the real scandal was how atrocious Cyrus’ performance was in artistic terms. She was clumsy, flat-footed and cringingly unsexy, an effect heightened by her manic grin.

How could American pop have gotten this bad? Sex has been a crucial component of the entertainment industry since the seductive vamps of silent film and the bawdy big mamas of roadhouse blues. Elvis Presley, James Brown and Mick Jagger brought sizzling heat to rock, soul and funk music, which in turn spawned the controversial raw explicitness of urban hip-hop.

The Cyrus fiasco, however, is symptomatic of the still heavy influence of Madonna, who sprang to world fame in the 1980s with sophisticated videos that were suffused with a daring European art-film eroticism and that were arguably among the best artworks of the decade. Madonna’s provocations were smolderingly sexy because she had a good Catholic girl’s keen sense of transgression. Subversion requires limits to violate.

Young performers will probably never equal or surpass the genuine shocks delivered by the young Madonna, as when she sensually rolled around in a lacy wedding dress and thumped her chest with the mic while singing “Like a Virgin” at the first MTV awards show in 1984. Her influence was massive and profound, on a global scale.

But more important, Madonna, a trained modern dancer, was originally inspired by work of tremendous quality — above all, Marlene Dietrich’s glamorous movie roles as a bisexual blond dominatrix and Bob Fosse’s stunningly forceful strip-club choreography for the 1972 film Cabaret, set in decadent Weimar-era Berlin. Today’s aspiring singers, teethed on frenetically edited small-screen videos, rarely have direct contact with those superb precursors and are simply aping feeble imitations of Madonna at 10th remove.

Pop is suffering from the same malady as the art world, which is stuck on the tired old rubric that shock automatically confers value. But those once powerful avant-garde gestures have lost their relevance in our diffuse and technology-saturated era, when there is no longer an ossified high-culture establishment to rebel against. On the contrary, the fine arts are alarmingly distant or marginal to most young people today.

Unfortunately, the media spotlight so cheaply won by Cyrus will inevitably spur repeats of her silly stunt, by her and others. Image and profile now rule the music industry. At a time when profits are coming far more from touring than from CD sales, performers are being hammered too early into a marketable formula for cavernous sports venues. With their massive computerized lighting and special-effects systems, arena shows make improvisation impossible and stifle the natural rapport with the audience that performers once had in vaudeville houses and jazz clubs. There is neither time nor space to develop emotional depth or creative skills.

Pop is an artistic tradition that deserves as much respect as any other. Its lineage stretches back to 17th century Appalachian folk songs and African-American blues, all of which can still be heard vibrating in the lyrics and chord structure of contemporary music. But our most visible young performers, consumed with packaging and attitude, seem to have little sense of that thrilling continuity and therefore no confidence in how it can define and sustain their artistic identities over the course of a career.

What was perhaps most embarrassing about Miley Cyrus’ dismal gig was its cutesy toys — a giant teddy bear from which she popped to cavort with a dance troupe in fuzzy bear drag. Intended to satirize her Disney past, it signaled instead the childishness of Cyrus’ notion of sexuality, which has become simply a cartoonish gimmick to disguise a lack of professional focus. Sex isn’t just exposed flesh and crude gestures. The greatest performers, like Madonna in a canonical video such as “Vogue,” know how to use suggestion and mystery to project the magic of sexual allure. Miley, go back to school!


Read more: Camille Paglia: What Miley Cyrus’ Stunt Reveals About Music Business | TIME.com

[Pearl]

Its all desperation to shock people to gain publicity and sales. Too bad people aren't easily shocked these days, unless you get really offensive or taboo, and then that signals we are out of ideas.