Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[jeevey]

Here's my original statement:

(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)

Do women, when they are doing that "good feeling/bad feeling" check in about a new person, include somewhere in it their sense of whether a man sexually safe? I think they do. I think if you had a real conversation with a woman instead of a text exchange, I think you'd hear some variation of affirmative. The answer I don't think you'd hear is, "No. I always assume that every man is sexually safe and I never think twice about putting myself alone with a man I don't know unless I have a concrete reason to believe he isn't safe."

But the contentious statement was really a quick example of male privilege- it's one of many things women have to worry about and men do not. Has any man on this thread ever assessed whether a woman who's caught his eye may be a rapist? You guys were all very quick to tell me what women think, but all avoided the actual point of my post.

You also haven't really engaged with Pearl about the main point of her article, and ignored her when she posted this

Since women are usually raped by men that they know, rather than strangers, it is something that goes through our heads when meeting a guy, even for a millisecond. It's something we are conditioned with, just like being careful on what to wear when you're alone at night.

So I'll say it again.

The most common type of sexist behavior among men who sympathize with feminism is failing to really hear what women are saying. To say, "that's not the way it is, your experience or your interpretation of it is invalid. Let me tell you how it really is and what feminism really needs to do, and how to fix your problems. " The hardest thing for any privileged group to do is be quiet and just listen to what the Other has to say.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Here's my original statement:

Your original statement is exactly what we were responding to

Do women, when they are doing that "good feeling/bad feeling" check in about a new person, include somewhere in it their sense of whether a man sexually safe? I think they do.

Apparently not specifically. And not consciously. And no differently from the way a man makes a judgement call on a person's first impression

I think if you had a real conversation with a woman instead of a text exchange, I think you'd hear some variation of affirmative.

Ya, I've had one or two real conversations with my girlfriend that weren't over text.
Your hypothesis was proven wrong with the very first girl I asked (and from the next girl to respond in this thread). I can ask more if you like. My girlfriend also added:
"I don't like walking at home at night because I don't want to get mugged. I only think about rape because everyone is always talking about it"

and

"Comments like that give feminists a bad name"
(she considers herself a feminist)

The answer I don't think you'd hear is, "No. I always assume that every man is sexually safe and I never think twice about putting myself alone with a man I don't know unless I have a concrete reason to believe he isn't safe."

You're getting further and further away from your original comment in an effort to save face.

But the contentious statement was really a quick example of male privilege- it's one of many things women have to worry about and men do not. Has any man on this thread ever assessed whether a woman who's caught his eye may be a rapist?

Nope, I never have to worry about getting raped by a woman. I also don't worry about getting jumped and beaten up by a woman. Or getting mugged by a woman. What does this prove?

You guys were all very quick to tell me what women think, but all avoided the actual point of my post.

Ironically it was you who were quick to tell all women what they think. You've also done a lot of telling men what to think.


We've already addressed Pearl's comment. We've been addressing it for several posts. Repeating your post changes nothing

[AEON]

failing to really hear what women are saying.

My wife does say to me a lot. But I'm afraid any solution to solve the "communication gap" quickly devolves into the basic assumption that men are apes that simply desire to fix shit.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Ya, I've had one or two real conversations with my girlfriend that weren't over text.

Sorry, you said you asked your GF this question in a text. I think an in person conversation about how she sizes up new aquaintances would likely be more nuanced.

Nope, I never have to worry about getting raped by a woman. I also don't worry about getting jumped and beaten up by a woman. Or getting mugged by a woman. What does this prove?

You are always able to initiate an intimate relationship with the expectation that your potential partner will be physically and sexually safe for you. That's an example of male privilege, the subject Pearl's article.



Somebody made a list of other examples here The Male Privilege Checklist | Alas, a Blog with a bunch of others, a bunch of which are good and some of which are lamer. There's a few good ones in a row right off.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.


Again, the list is not perfect but it is food for thought. These are examples of ways that men benefit from a sexist culture without awareness or intention. As Pearl's article noted, becoming aware of them is uncomfortable. "Anger is an entirely appropriate response to learning that you’re implicated in a system that oppresses women – but the solution isn’t to direct that anger back at women. The solution isn’t to shut down debate by accusing us of “reverse sexism”, as if that will somehow balance out the problem and stop you feeling so uncomfortable."

[Irvine511]

FWIW, where I work, it's heavily female dominated, and I see examples of reverse sexism. I see women who think the men under them are dumb, don't follow through, aren't organized, and can't be trusted to complete more than one task at once. In addition, if there is any conflict with a male subordinate, it's because "he has a problem working for women/having a woman tell him what to do."

It's not because she happens to be a shitty boss, it must be because it's the man who has the sexism problem. It's not her he had a problem with, it's women in general.

I expect to see more of this in the future.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Sorry, you said you asked your GF this question in a text. I think an in person conversation about how she sizes up new aquaintances would likely be more nuanced.

Don't be sorry. I was just sayin'. You're right, it would be more nuanced, but we'd come to the same conclusion. She was quite adamant in her reply and follow ups. Rape isn't something she generally thinks about

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

FWIW, where I work, it's heavily female dominated, and I see examples of reverse sexism. I see women who think the men under them are dumb, don't follow through, aren't organized, and can't be trusted to complete more than one task at once. In addition, if there is any conflict with a male subordinate, it's because "he has a problem working for women/having a woman tell him what to do."

It's not because she happens to be a shitty boss, it must be because it's the man who has the sexism problem. It's not her he had a problem with, it's women in general.

I expect to see more of this in the future.

It just goes to show - whoever is in majority will have a skewed perspective of some kind. I suppose the best we can do is try to teach empathy (if it can be taught) as much as possible.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

As Pearl's article noted, becoming aware of them is uncomfortable. "Anger is an entirely appropriate response to learning that you’re implicated in a system that oppresses women – but the solution isn’t to direct that anger back at women. The solution isn’t to shut down debate by accusing us of “reverse sexism”, as if that will somehow balance out the problem and stop you feeling so uncomfortable."

I find this to be incredibly patronizing. As if I couldn't hold a different opinion without feeling uncomfortable. I feel zero discomfort with any benefits I might get from society for being a man. I'm not angry at anyone for pointing that out. I'm not calling anyone out for reverse sexism.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

You are always able to initiate an intimate relationship with the expectation that your potential partner will be physically and sexually safe for you. That's an example of male privilege, the subject Pearl's article.



Somebody made a list of other examples here The Male Privilege Checklist | Alas, a Blog with a bunch of others, a bunch of which are good and some of which are lamer. There's a few good ones in a row right off.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.
2. I can be confident that my co-workers won’t think I got my job because of my sex – even though that might be true. (More).
3. If I am never promoted, it’s not because of my sex.
4. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.
5. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co-workers are. (More).
6. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.


Again, the list is not perfect but it is food for thought. These are examples of ways that men benefit from a sexist culture without awareness or intention. As Pearl's article noted, becoming aware of them is uncomfortable. "Anger is an entirely appropriate response to learning that you’re implicated in a system that oppresses women – but the solution isn’t to direct that anger back at women. The solution isn’t to shut down debate by accusing us of “reverse sexism”, as if that will somehow balance out the problem and stop you feeling so uncomfortable."

Once again with these shitty absolutes and patronizing tones

A man is always able to initiate a relationship with the expectation of her being physically safe for him? Tell that to my good friend who had to have his girlfriend put in jail for pulling a knife on him and then later taking a swing at the cop.

I can show you examples of industries and companies that make each and everyone of those on the list false.

And my god that last portion of your post is just hideous, if any man were to write anything similar to that you would be calling them out without hesitation. I find your lack of self awareness about the hypocrisy your posting sometimes carry to be extremely unsettling.

[Pearl]

I just want to say that even though sexism, and at worst misogyny, piss me off, I also get disgusted with misandry.

I think both men and women are capable of mistreating the opposite sex and be in denial over the problems they are causing. A man would say, "a woman is weaker and men have always been in charge, so what?" A woman would say, "women have always been oppressed, so I am exercising my rights as a woman against my oppressor!" Both mindsets are very damaging for the genders and society.

I sometimes feel angry over sexism, double-standards and such, and it makes me want to damn men to hell. That post I did on that Irish girl being slut-shamed is a good example of how upset I can get. But then I feel horrified and embarrassed when I hear about women hurting men too, especially when it comes to child custody cases. That is a good example of women abusing their privileges, and they do have them!

There are people who blow the whole "battle of the sexes" - for lack of a better phrase - out of proportion, and make it seem worse than it actually is. As a result, there can be tension between men and women. I do feel sad that it comes to that and I really think some people need to realize that the blame is not always on women who don't know their place or men who secretly hate women - but instead, maybe you are the problem.

I also think it is too easy to blame relationship or workplace issues on gender differences or sexism. It is just too easy. I know it does exist, as I did deal with it myself once and it was real. But some people make a mountain out of a molehill over it. Or they are just playing the gender card to intimidate or get others on their side more.

[bono_212]

Ok, I was confused about the original statement:

Did I ever think, with my now husband, when we were first dating (in person) that the thought of rape ever crossed my mind? Or whether being with him was safe? Not that I recall.

Have there been other men in my life who I have avoided being alone with because there was a part of me that was afraid they might rape me? There have been a few. I don't think that's because I'm inherently afraid of men, but more the way those men behaved towards me in certain situations.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by bono_212

Ok, I was confused about the original statement:

Did I ever think, with my now husband, when we were first dating (in person) that the thought of rape ever crossed my mind? Or whether being with him was safe? Not that I recall.

Have there been other men in my life who I have avoided being alone with because there was a part of me that was afraid they might rape me? There have been a few. I don't think that's because I'm inherently afraid of men, but more the way those men behaved towards me in certain situations.

You weren't confused. Your top response was relevant to the way the comment was originally stated. The bottom response is relevant to the way the comment was rephrased. None of us are arguing with the second part

[bono_212]

Ok, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't way off the mark.

[jeevey]

I'm sorry my last quote came off as patronizing. I thought it was appropriate because several men on this thread have in fact expressed anger at being implicated in a system that oppresses women, and examples of reverse sexism (I know a boss who doesn't like men, there exists a small percentage of men who experience domestic violence and such) have certainly been used on this thread to minimize the complexity, size, and the personal aspect of our problem.

We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men-- that's the fundamental claim of feminism. Is it bogus?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by jeevey

We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men-- that's the fundamental claim of feminism. Is it bogus?

But these things are improving. We may not be there yet, but they are improving.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by jeevey

I'm sorry my last quote came off as patronizing. I thought it was appropriate because several men on this thread have in fact expressed anger at being implicated in a system that oppresses women, and examples of reverse sexism (I know a boss who doesn't like men, there exists a small percentage of men who experience domestic violence and such) have certainly been used on this thread to minimize the complexity, size, and the personal aspect of our problem.

We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men-- that's the fundamental claim of feminism. Is it bogus?

Now you're starting to lose even me.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

I'm sorry my last quote came off as patronizing. I thought it was appropriate because several men on this thread have in fact expressed anger at being implicated in a system that oppresses women, and examples of reverse sexism (I know a boss who doesn't like men, there exists a small percentage of men who experience domestic violence and such) have certainly been used on this thread to minimize the complexity, size, and the personal aspect of our problem.

We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men-- that's the fundamental claim of feminism. Is it bogus?

Even in your apology you're pointing judgement and patronizing. No one is trying to minimize anything, we're just trying to show you that your broad umbrella absolutes don't exist.

I find your posts head-scratching and sometimes frustrating, but never once have you seen me angry. I find them head-scratching because you're trying too hard to place everyone in boxes based on sex, you're too quick to judge, and you're slow to look critically at your own words. You recently jumped on a comment in the new album section, and yet it's the same exact type of comment that you say nothing about or participate with in PLEBA. I think sometimes you do yourself more harm than good, and that has absolutely NOTHING to do with your sex.

[AEON]

Jeevey, I also want make certain that many of us do understand that the feelings you have around this issue are valid, and somewhere in all this is a way for us men to gain a little more wisdom; and in our own, personal quest for righteousness, we must be aware of those models and systems we might inadvertently partake in.

[AliEnvy]

Originally Posted by AEON

Jeevey, I also want make certain that many of us do understand that the feelings you have around this issue are valid, and somewhere in all this is a way for us men to gain a little more wisdom; and in our own, personal quest for righteousness, we must be aware of those models and systems we might inadvertently partake in.

[jeevey]

I appreciate you efforts to soften the tone, Aeon. It's always going to be uncomfortable to talk about imbalances of power and privilege- for everybody. It's difficult for women to talk about and it's difficult for men to hear. When I was talking about the anger quote above, it was not in reference to personal anger as in, we within this thread being angry with each other, but in reference to the article's observation that ordinary men may be angry (or disturbed, upset, offended, denying or whatever) at the suggestion that they are personally participating in our society-wide imbalance of power between the sexes. And the first posts in response were exactly that- claiming immunity from participation, and then in subsequent posts asking, even if if that were true, what could I do about it? It's much, must easier to think that we in our personal lives have nothing to do with the wider attitudes of society. It's much easier to think that the problem only operates somewhere else where the really sexist people live. It's much easier not to talk with people in our lives about how gender imbalances affect us.

What I see happening in this thread is little willingness to examine the participation of ordinary men in the patriarchy because it causes discomfort. A sense that feminism can only be okay if it doesn't make anybody uncomfortable. A sense that no generalization can be useful, and a preference to endlessly pick apart exceptions to the generalization rather than engage with the meta-issues that are obviously true and present.

And the meta issues really are here to be examined. This is the root of the feminist issue again, quoted from above. We live in a culture that routinely awards less social, economic, political, personal and sexual power to women than to men. No one wants to pick that ball up.