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Old 08-20-2013, 04:32 PM   #501
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Do you think a man would be as shamed in this situation as a woman?

It always bothered me, especially now looking back at being a teenager, how boys would do everything they could to get as far as they could with a girl, and then turn around and rake her over the coals for giving them what they wanted.

It's something I find very upsetting about heterosexuality, especially among the young.
Thank you, Irvine.

For lack of a better term, it is total bullshit that boys are allowed to be boys while if a girl acts the same way, she is immediately a whore who should be ostracized from society. The double-standard baffles me.

It is really society's way of shaming a woman for owning her sexuality.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:36 PM   #502
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But you just said it was impossible unless we get a sex change.
I said it's impossible for men to experience sexism as women do. And it is.

If I want to know what it's like to do something I've never done, I have to ask someone who has. It would be silly for me to say, "No, that's not what skydiving is like." I would have to listen to skydivers tell about skydiving, and then use my imagination and my empathy to picture what that experience is like, and then check in with the skydivers to see if I'm getting the right impression. And someday with good observation and listening I may have a pretty good picture of what skydiving is like. But I would never really know by experience what it's like until I did it myself.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:45 PM   #503
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(As a quick example, most men have never worried that a woman they'd like to get to know may rape them, but every woman has to.)
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Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day.


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Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender.
You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:51 PM   #504
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You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.
Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:52 PM   #505
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It makes you a beneficiary. It also makes you more likely to unintentionally be sexist simply because it's very hard for you to be aware of it. Personally I have trouble with the word perpetrator is this usage.
But let's say I'm not unintentionally sexist since there is no evidence in my life to suggest I am. I'm merely a 'beneficiary'. How does it help the situation at all to continually point out that I'm a beneficiary? How do you cope with being a beneficiary of being white? Of being straight? Of living in the USA? Of not being born into poverty? Of not being born with any outward mental deficiencies? Of being born without any physical handicaps? Do these things make you an unintentional racist, homophobe, xenophobe, classist, ableist? Or are you just an individual making your way through a world filled with isms in which you're in no way promoting or perpetuating?



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Sorry, but no. Every woman in our society is taught from the time she is a little girl that she may be targeted by a rapist some day. Any time you have met a woman for the first time and she considered spending time with you in anything other that a crowded public space, chances are that she checked in with herself about if she felt you are safe. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice or safe you actually are. That's just what women have to do in our society, and that's just the price that all men pay because some men rape. It's unfair to the non-rapists, but that's just the way it is.
No, I'm sorry, but no. You're simply wrong here. I'd be more than happy to ask my current girlfriend about this. You're taking your own feelings and experiences and projecting them on every other woman. Am I doubting the fact that more than likely, every woman has at multiple points thought about the possibility of being raped? Or at some point (probably multiple points) been afraid to walk home at night for fear of rape being a real possibility? of course not. But to say that every woman at some time has thought that every man might at some point rape her is simply untrue fear mongering.


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Here's the thing. Men do not experience sexism as women do- they can't. It's literally impossible for a man to know what it's like to experience sexism as a woman unless he switches his gender. Talking about it is a conversation, but experiential knowing can really only come from a woman. So if men want find out what it's like, they have to listen.
I have empathy. There isn't a single human emotion that you've experienced that I haven't experienced to the same degree. You don't have a monopoly on that. I'm able to listen, to put myself in the shoes of someone in a position I've never been in, to relate that to an event in my life, and to take all that and speak to that person on equal terms. I have felt shame, embarrassment, fear, discrimination, judgement, belittlement. You don't get the free pass of "well, you just don't understand" as if it's a trump card of some sort.
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:57 PM   #506
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Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:00 PM   #507
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You've made some pretty ridiculously over the top statements during your stint here in interference but I think these top them all.

I've learned that very few absolutes if any exist in society, yet you proceed under some very assuming one almost on a regular basis. I find you are sometime too quick to label someone or something sexist and that can often do more harm than good when it comes to getting people to understand your point.



Haven't seen you around for a bit. Welcome back
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:01 PM   #508
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Thanks
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:02 PM   #509
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I think you misread my response to that article.

Here it is again:
Yes, there is a double-standard and I agree that after fifty plus years of feminism, we may not be making progress in this area. Perhaps we need to listen to young men as well - and really to understand this line of thinking.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:03 PM   #510
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Jeevey may do that, but her statement that every woman is aware she may be the target of rape someday is accurate. I find it impossible for any woman to not have that cross their mind ever in her life.
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I know plenty of women, right or wrong, that have never had it cross their mind.
The thing about jeevey's statement that was completely over the top was assuming every woman has thought she might be raped by every man she's ever met. And I think that's what BVS was addressing.

But I don't think it's outlandish to think that probably every women has thought about the possibility of being raped. I've thought about the possibility of being murdered. I've walked down some sketchy ass streets at night where it became a thought more forefront in my mind. So in that, I think it's only natural
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:03 PM   #511
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But let's say I'm not unintentionally sexist since there is no evidence in my life to suggest I am. I'm merely a 'beneficiary'. How does it help the situation at all to continually point out that I'm a beneficiary? How do you cope with being a beneficiary of being white? Of being straight? Of living in the USA? Of not being born into poverty? Of not being born with any outward mental deficiencies? Of being born without any physical handicaps? Do these things make you an unintentional racist, homophobe, xenophobe, classist, ableist? Or are you just an individual making your way through a world filled with isms in which you're in no way promoting or perpetuating?
well said.
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:51 PM   #512
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:17 PM   #513
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:27 PM   #514
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You guys are hilarious. I specifically said, a woman who is considering spending time alone with a man in a non public space considers whether he is safe or not.Not every man she's ever met.


I do think you should ask your girl friends about it. Hey babe, when you first thought about going out with a guy, did you wonder if he was safe? Did you have a creep alarm that went off if you thought the guy might be a predator? Ask your mom, your sisters and the women you work with, too. Chances are the answer will be "Yes, I thought about it. Usually I got a feeling about a guy right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him. I didn't worry much if we had a mutual friend who said he was fine." It's just the way it works. All people tend to read novel situations as more dangerous than familiar ones, even if the familiar one is measurably more dangerous.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:40 PM   #515
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You guys are hilarious.
This is deflection.

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I do think you should ask your girl friends about it. Hey babe, when you first thought about going out with a guy, did you wonder if he was safe? Did you have a creep alarm that went off if you thought the guy might be a predator? Ask your mom, your sisters and the women you work with, too. Chances are the answer will be "Yes, I thought about it. Usually I got a feeling about a guy right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him. I didn't worry much if we had a mutual friend who said he was fine." It's just the way it works. All people tend to read novel situations as more dangerous than familiar ones, even if the familiar one is measurably more dangerous.
And this is changing your tone. HUMANS have an internal alarm that gives "a feeling about a guy(or girl) right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him". That is not how you originally framed it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:42 PM   #516
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It seems like you might be backing away from the severity of the original statement though. Do I think that everyone makes a superficial call on someone's personality when they first meet them? Yes. Do I think that first impressions count toward if you spend any time with an individual? Yes. But, there's a huge difference between "this guy seems rapey" and "Checklist: Does this guy seem rapey? Nope"
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:43 PM   #517
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This is deflection.


And this is changing your tone. HUMANS have an internal alarm that gives "a feeling about a guy(or girl) right away and if it was a bad one I'd avoid him". That is not how you originally framed it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:44 PM   #518
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I specifically said, a woman who is considering spending time alone with a man in a non public space considers whether he is safe or not.Not every man she's ever met.
This doesn't change anything for my side of the argument
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:47 PM   #519
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Just texted my girlfriend
"At any point when we first started seeing each other, did it ever cross your mind that I might rape you?"

Her response:
"absolutely not. To say that every girl always thinks that is retarded"
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #520
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