Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[cobl04]

I'm definitely with you on this one IWB. What Tosh said was bad, although like you I wasn't offended by it. I just cannot stand him because I don't think he's funny, and that's one example of why.

Also worth thinking about - why does the amount of left-wing comedians thoroughly outweigh the right-wing ones? I actually couldn't name a right-wing comedian.

Maybe I should just stop talking, but I think he makes some great (and funny) points here as well.

Louie CK: Faggot, Cunt, Nigger - YouTube

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.

There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.

85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticV...ational%29.pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combat...crime_laws.pdf

Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.

There is absolutely no doubting the fact that gender is a factor. Just yesterday my friend (a real estate agent) was telling me that a male colleague of her told another male colleague that he should lower his chair so he can better see her legs/up her skirt or something like that. The real estate industry is one that is astoundingly sexist.

A TV host over here ended up in hospital after she became the target of a disgusting, sexist 9gag/4chan attack online.

And maybe instead of having to-and-fro debates over subtleties, we should just admit there's a problem. Jeevey is not making up these facts or things out of thin air.

[IWasBored]

Originally Posted by cobl04

I'm definitely with you on this one IWB. What Tosh said was bad, although like you I wasn't offended by it. I just cannot stand him because I don't think he's funny, and that's one example of why.

Also worth thinking about - why does the amount of left-wing comedians thoroughly outweigh the right-wing ones? I actually couldn't name a right-wing comedian.

Maybe I should just stop talking, but I think he makes some great (and funny) points here as well.

Because the right is inherently funny without having to slap the title comedian on it? Or maybe because there were no comedians in the bible. Have to ask Indy that one.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

The interesting thing about the slurs you mention, Jive, is that they are not specifically related to sex as part of your identity, and they don't imply someone else's access to your body the way slut and whore do. There's quite a lot loaded into those little words that male or gender neutral slurs do not. They make you feel vulnerable in ways the fuckface and dickhead do not.

It's true that gaming is a very sexist subculture, but internet trolling can be and is done by anyone. The anonymity of the internet allows for what's called dissociative anonymity- a security that your real identity is not known and you literally take on another one. It's the same phenomenon that allows for a huge range of surprising people to be collectors child porn. Once people start getting outed it's pretty devastating, because they really rely on that safety. Even the famous reddit troll Violentacrez was devastated when he was outed, and insisted that really he's a good guy.

I think you're losing the plot here.

Originally Posted by jeevey

Going back now to the other parts of my sweeping assertions, part 2- women are targeted for violence based on sex.

There is lots and lots of male violence in the world. Guys hurt and kill each other for all sorts of reasons. But when women are victims it is very often on the basis of her sex- rape and domestic violence.

85% of domestic violence victims are women. Almost one third of female homicide victims are killed by an intimate parter, as compared to 3% of men. http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticV...ational%29.pdf In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter which partner was killed, the man physically abused the woman before the murder. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics state that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of arrestees for rape are male. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/SOO.PDF

I will stand with you and argue that these are truly horrific numbers. But I'm still having a hard time with your assertion that this shows they are "targeted based on sex", especially when you're discussing domestic violence and intimate partners. This shows me we have a male aggression issue, rather than a "targeted" victim. Love, sex and relationships spark heated emotions and anger; the problem here lies in that that anger is transferred into violence. The only reason that the numbers are shockingly one-sided is due to the fact of physical size and aggression, not targeting.

Originally Posted by jeevey

As for the protection women receive, that's actually the easiest part of the whole thing. In the US 23 states have hate crime laws protecting race, relgion and ethncity from hate crimes, but only 13 list gender. http://www.adl.org/assets/pdf/combat...crime_laws.pdf

Gender was added to the federal list of protected groups in 2009, in the same bill that added sexual orientation and gender identity. Civil Rights Division Home Page. However, rape and sexual assault are not classified as hate crimes, even then they include group-specific slurs which would trigger a hate crime investigation if the word was kike instead of whore. Sigh.

I think hate crimes are difficult, in fact we've had full threads dedicated to them. But I think some of what you're arguing here is blurring the lines. Rape is violent, and most would say all of rape is hate, but by the definition of a "hate crime" would all rape fall under that category? Would all sexual assault fall under that category?

[jeevey]

Interesting question. Not all domestic assaults are "hate crimes" because gays do experience domestic violence at similar rates to straights. You are right in that all rapes relate to dominance and control, which is why male rape seems to be concentrated in high authority cultures with intense competition for social status- prison and are the military are easy examples.

But are all male on female rapes hate crimes?

For what other reason do men rape women, other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman? She has a hole, and it can and should be fucked. Sometimes the rapee is a proxy for the person a rapist is really mad at, sometimes she's a representative of how he feels about all women. Sometimes he's demonstrating his masculinity for other men, sometimes he's expressing his own frustration at the complexities of gender relations (what one pair of researchers has charmingly called an "alternative mating strategy" Why men want to rape | General | Times Higher Education) But the thing they all have in common is that they take sexual access to a woman's body without her consent because it is a woman's body.

And how is that different from feeling entitled to beat up a gay man because he is gay, or lynch a black man because he is black?


One thing we could use is a masculinity thread, because the common link in most rapes and other violent crimes is that they are very disproportionately committed by men. That doesn't mean that men are inherently violent, because not all men are violent, and in some cultures they are far less than in others. I think what we really have is a problem with the way we socialize men. Masculinity is tightly linked to dominance, control- the ability to force one's will on others and not be influenced by them. That's not to say all men do all those things all the time, but they face a very strong narrative about it. That's one reason why rape is so devastating for male victims- because it strikes right at their sense of being a man. Just like in Jive's Chappelle link- it's a hundred times better to let your wife think you have been intentionally fucking other women, than to let her know that you've been physically dominated and invaded by a man.

[MrsSpringsteen]

We've had masculinity threads before, maybe if you search you could find some and a mod could unlock them if they're too old. Or just start one yourself

Maybe there could be a separate thread for all this discussion (I believe mods can split them off, it's been done here in the past), it has strayed quite a bit from the original topic and I do think the original was well worth saving and discussing. Not saying at all that this isn't

[jeevey]

It's interesting that people feel the things we've been discussing- gender portrayal in the media, mutual pleasure and rape culture, have no bearing on whether feminism is still relevant. To me that the fact these issues exist and that we still have to discuss whether they are important, is evidence that it is.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

It's interesting that people feel the things we've been discussing- gender portrayal in the media, mutual pleasure and rape culture, have no bearing on whether feminism is still relevant. To me that the fact these issues exist and that we still have to discuss whether they are important, is evidence that it is.

Gender portrayal, absolutely relevant to this discussion.

Mutual pleasure, has not one thing to do with this topic, for the reasons that have all been discussed.

And "rape culture"? I'm not even sure I know what that is, but I honestly think that not all rape has to do with sexism. So I really think you're being too broad and trying to cast too big of a net on this one. I think most criminal psychologists would disagree with your "other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman" statement.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

And "rape culture"? I'm not even sure I know what that is, but I honestly think that not all rape has to do with sexism. So I really think you're being too broad and trying to cast too big of a net on this one. I think most criminal psychologists would disagree with your "other than that they feel entitled to because she is a woman" statement.

Rape culture is very real. Think Steubenville. It is also a term being used more on feminist blogs and a few news outlets.

Here are some links to get you started on understanding it:

Sabrina Nelson: Slut-Shaming and Rape Culture

Rape Culture

Steubenville Rape Case: Does America Have an Unadmitted Rape Culture Problem?

Rape has a lot to do with sexism. Any man who sees women as equals and does not think women must be obligated to have sex with him, and no doesn't mean she's being coy, will almost never rape a woman. How often do you hear about rapists telling their victims once they're done, "thanks bitch!" or "you must've really wanted it".

I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Rape culture is very real. Think Steubenville. It is also a term being used more on feminist blogs and a few news outlets.

Here are some links to get you started on understanding it:

Sabrina Nelson: Slut-Shaming and Rape Culture

Rape Culture

Steubenville Rape Case: Does America Have an Unadmitted Rape Culture Problem?

I think we cheapen the severity of rape by using the word "culture", I understand the point they are trying to make, but to me none of those websites truly meet the dictionary definition of culture.

Originally Posted by Pearl

Rape has a lot to do with sexism. Any man who sees women as equals and does not think women must be obligated to have sex with him, and no doesn't mean she's being coy, will almost never rape a woman. How often do you hear about rapists telling their victims once they're done, "thanks bitch!" or "you must've really wanted it".

I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.

What about men who are raped? Sexism issue? Are the men not seeing their victims as equals due to their sex?

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I don't think a wide net is being casted here. There are real gender issues involving rape, and there's no way to avoid that.

Exactly. Trying to deny it is just playing needless semantic games. Nearly 20% of women have been sexually assaulted. Compare that to 3% for men. It is certainly a gendered issue.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Exactly. Trying to deny it is just playing needless semantic games. Nearly 20% of women have been sexually assaulted. Compare that to 3% for men. It is certainly a gendered issue.

My only point is that it's not true to all rape. Rape is about power, and normally the rapist will target the sex that they are attracted to, but is really due to gender issues or is it something much deeper than that?

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

I think we cheapen the severity of rape by using the word "culture", I understand the point they are trying to make, but to me none of those websites truly meet the dictionary definition of culture.



What about men who are raped? Sexism issue? Are the men not seeing their victims as equals due to their sex?

I honestly find it kind of disturbing that some guys seem to think all rape is the same, and sexism is never an issue. Yes, men do get raped but how in comparison, women are raped the most in the world. I see the point in how rape is equally damaging for both sexes, but to take away the misogynist part is kind of ignoring womens' experiences and fear over being raped. For centuries, men have used their superior physical strength to overpower a woman. Rape is the ultimate way to overpower and violate someone. Usually guys see men as their fellow human beings while women are another kind, or even inferior. You know, "bros before 'hos"?

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Exactly. Trying to deny it is just playing needless semantic games. Nearly 20% of women have been sexually assaulted. Compare that to 3% for men. It is certainly a gendered issue.

Thank you, Iron Yuppie. To say otherwise, frankly, is to almost turn a blind eye to all the misogynistic fears women go through each day.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

I honestly find it kind of disturbing that some guys seem to think all rape is the same, and sexism is never an issue. Yes, men do get raped but how in comparison, women are raped the most in the world. I see the point in how rape is equally damaging for both sexes, but to take away the misogynist part is kind of ignoring womens' experiences and fear over being raped. For centuries, men have used their superior physical strength to overpower a woman. Rape is the ultimate way to overpower and violate someone. Usually guys see men as their fellow human beings while women are another kind, or even inferior. You know, "bros before 'hos"?

Where did I say "all rape is the same"? In fact I'm the one trying to get Jeevey to understand that it can't all be placed under the same umbrella.

I think there's difference(though very thin line) between misogyny and sexism, I see misogyny being more on the individual side and sexism being institutional or society. Also one is defined as hatred and the other is defined as discrimination or not seeing as equal. So I would agree that almost all male on female rape would be about misogyny.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

Where did I say "all rape is the same"? In fact I'm the one trying to get Jeevey to understand that it can't all be placed under the same umbrella.

I think there's difference(though very thin line) between misogyny and sexism, I see misogyny being more on the individual side and sexism being institutional or society. Also one is defined as hatred and the other is defined as discrimination or not seeing as equal. So I would agree that almost all male on female rape would be about misogyny.

No, you didn't say that, but I got the impression that was what you were thinking. I've seen and heard men try to downplay violence against women by pointing out that men suffer abuse too. For example, with that violence against women bill in Congress, some men think it is unfair that the law applies to women and not to men. Yes, there are men abused by their female partners, but it pales in comparison to male on female abuse - and the results are more damaging.

I am not trying to change the subject or steer off course. I'm just pointing out what I've seen so much of and I was wondering if the same was happening here.

My only point is that it's not true to all rape. Rape is about power, and normally the rapist will target the sex that they are attracted to, but is really due to gender issues or is it something much deeper than that?

I'm a little baffled by this. How can rape not be about gender issues - social or individual? If rape is about power and some men love to humiliate and hurt women, how can rape not be about gender issues?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Pearl

No, you didn't say that, but I got the impression that was what you were thinking.

Not at all. Please take context into consideration, I was responding to the context of your statements that rape is about sexism, rape is about gender issues. I was just pointing out one example where it wasn't, so that we get away from these blanket overreaching statements.

Originally Posted by Pearl

I'm a little baffled by this. How can rape not be about gender issues - social or individual? If rape is about power and some men love to humiliate and hurt women, how can rape not be about gender issues?

If a man shoots a man, he's a murderer. If he then shoots a woman would it automatically be about gender issues?

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by BVS

If a man shoots a man, he's a murderer. If he then shoots a woman would it automatically be about gender issues?

Not always. But if he's calling her a slut and a whore, if he's punishing her for nagging him or for sleeping with someone else (supposed or real) or for leaving him or taking the kids, then I think probably.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

if he's punishing her for nagging him or for sleeping with someone else (supposed or real) or for leaving him or taking the kids, then I think probably.

What? Not one of those things have anything to do with gender.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by BVS

What? Not one of those things have anything to do with gender.

It can if the guy has misogynist views. He may think a woman has no right to question a man or shouldn't speak to any man besides him.