Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Conversations are fluid, but threads tend to be a little more rigid than everyday conversations and usually dictate staying on topic. Not that it always does, or necessarily always has to, but this one feels way off topic and it's kind of lost it's meaning.

Lost its meaning only to the title of the thread. I see no harm in letting it play out. Ask a mod to change the thread title if it annoys you so

[BVS]

Not annoyed, just a tongue in cheek remark about it going off topic. Nothing more, nothing less...

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by BVS

Not annoyed, just a tongue in cheek remark about it going off topic. Nothing more, nothing less...

Ah, ok. Fair enough

[Pearl]

I know there's a thread on FEMEN already, but since the two literally are about feminism, might as well as post this here: (Careful, link is NSFW)

Topless 'Top Model' Protestors Crash Finale On Behalf Of FEMEN (NSFW PHOTOS)

I'm a feminist but I think FEMEN gives the women's rights movement a bad name. Crashing events, screaming, and sometimes throwing things, does not help women's issues at all. What they're really doing is promoting radical feminism and saying their brand is the only true feminism, and everyone else isn't good enough. They disgust me.

Here's another example on how shitty they are. They ruin an event where there were most likely families with their children: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3285268.html

[jeevey]

What I was trying to say is that rape comments target women as much as Mexican comments target Mexicans. And as for being persecuted.... Are you serious?

(trigger warning, don't click if violent images are upsetting to you)

Examples of Gender-Based Hate Speech on Facebook | WAM!

Scroll down for the images. All of these images target women for violence based on the fact that they are women.

And that is a feminist issue. Whether or not these things are acceptable is a feminist issue, as well as a human right issue. For fucking real, people. Do we really have to wonder whether these images are okay?

[Jive Turkey]

Mexican jokes are fine. There are entire episodes of South Park devoted to poking fun at Mexicans. Where are all the Mexicans up in arms about that?

wait... are you actually claiming to be persecuted?

[anitram]

This sort of reminds me of when I first started practicing law and we had a workplace diversity/cultural sensitivity seminar (or something largely to that effect) where one of the big takeaways was to ban the use of the word "retarded" in the workplace. Now obviously people didn't need to be told not to use it when socializing with clients, but this went to beyond that - to everyday workplace interactions, including with your coworkers who are friends in the lunch room, on coffee breaks and so on.

[Kieran McConville]

Originally Posted by jeevey

A lot of effective humor is based on irreverence, which is not the same as disrespect. Irreverence is directed towards ideologies and institutions. George Carlin's bits on religion are a great example. He's pointing out the ridiculousness he perceives in the ideas, not saying that religious people are stupid or need to be shot or raped.

Although he did say that Micky Mouse needed to be killed.

[jeevey]

It seems clear to me that women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex, and that society does not protect them in the same way it does blacks, gays or Jews. Call it what you will, violent misogynists operate with almost complete impunity.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

violent misogynists operate with almost complete impunity.

no they don't. It's hyperbole like this that makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

It seems clear to me that women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex, and that society does not protect them in the same way it does blacks, gays or Jews. Call it what you will, violent misogynists operate with almost complete impunity.

Wow! I believe my history here in FYM will prove my feminist stance. But I have to say, you have made some really preposterous statements in the last few days. You haven't shown anything to prove such a point as you stated above, and you've completely ignored my comment about eliminating the female's responsibility.

I'm having a real hard time understanding your comment about "society does not protect them in the same way". I'm sorry but it's a very misguided statement. You are going to have to produce more REAL evidence in order to prove your point, so far you really haven't done that.

[jeevey]

Sure. Give me a bit to get statistics together. Essentially we're looking at the percentages of women who experience sexual assault or domestic violence relative to rates of prosecution, as compared to other crimes. The rates at which women experience these crimes are very high, and prosecution is very low.

And what exactly is a woman's responsibility regarding her experiencing hate crime and sexualized violence?

I did answer your concern about a woman's sexual responsibility with her partner: every person needs to be proactive about showing their partner what they like. But the notion that both partners get off should be assumed by any person who goes to have sex with someone else. That's the missing piece about the orgasm gap.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

Sure. Give me a bit to get statistics together. Essentially we're looking at the percentages of women who experience sexual assault or domestic violence relative to rates of prosecution, as compared to other crimes. The rates at which women experience these crimes are very high, and prosecution is very low.

Not exactly, you didn't say "other crimes", you were very specific with your over the top statement.

Originally Posted by jeevey

And what exactly is a woman's responsibility regarding her experiencing hate crime and sexualized violence?

None, but nice try.

Originally Posted by jeevey

I did answer your concern about a woman's sexual responsibility with her partner: every person needs to be proactive about showing their partner what they like. But the notion that both partners get off should be assumed by any person who goes to have sex with someone else. That's the missing piece about the orgasm gap.

I have learned that nothing should be assumed in life. But communication and responsibility are essential to sexual relationships, on BOTH sides.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

And what exactly is a woman's responsibility regarding her experiencing hate crime and sexualized violence?

Originally Posted by BVS

None, but nice try.

I wonder where she learned to take people's statements and use them completely out of context...

[deep]

Originally Posted by jeevey

But the notion that both partners get off should be assumed by any person who goes to have sex with someone else.

this is a very limited view of sex and intimate relationships

[anitram]

Originally Posted by jeevey

But the notion that both partners get off should be assumed by any person who goes to have sex with someone else. That's the missing piece about the orgasm gap.

Seriously? You realize that there are plenty (most, if not all?) couples who have perfectly happy, healthy relationships and do not both get off during every act of intercourse? I think it's bizarre to assume that both partners will/must get off, and frankly not always necessarily wanted.

[iron yuppie]

Jive, I'm reading through this thread and having a difficult time understanding your perspective. It seems like you are saying that taking offense at something verbal is never justified. Is this it?

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by anitram

Seriously? You realize that there are plenty (most, if not all?) couples who have perfectly happy, healthy relationships and do not both get off during every act of intercourse? I think it's bizarre to assume that both partners will/must get off, and frankly not always necessarily wanted.

So, "get off" is basically my choice of shorthand for saying "equal right to pleasure, including orgasm for those who desire it." I understand what you're saying - orgasms are not the goal of human sexuality. It's just an effort to be short.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Jive, I'm reading through this thread and having a difficult time understanding your perspective. It seems like you are saying that taking offense at something verbal is never justified. Is this it?

I think maybe two separate points are getting muddled.
As far as people getting offended by a rape joke, that's fine. You're allowed to be offended. It's when people then take their personal reaction to a joke or comment and act as if it's somehow exceptional. The idea that, because they felt offended, something must be done about it, is completely self absorbed. And specifically trying to ban one particular 'brand' of joke implies that their offense is more important than anyone else's. If we're going to make anything the topic of a joke, we must make everything fair game.

My other comments (perhaps off the cuff and not entirely on topic) were directed at the mere idea of being offended by what someone else says. It's an indirect reaction to caring about what other people think, which is just a byproduct of insecurity. I don't think there is anything someone can say that would evoke a feeling of 'offense' in me. I just wouldn't put enough stock into what that person was saying. I can't understand letting it affect you emotionally like that. Taking 'offense' is much more about the offended party than the offending one

[jeevey]

So here's my original quote, with the implied grammar expanded a little bit to make clear what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by jeevey

Women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex, and that society does not protect them [from those hate crimes] in the same way it does blacks, gays or Jews [from hate crimes].

Okay, so the first part- women are targeted for hate speech and violence based on sex.

A quick survey of the FB memes on the link I posted and a few places can demonstrate hate speech.

Another study shows that gaming has a sexist problem - Destructoid A female-voice player receives 3 times as many negative comments as a male voice player in online gaming, many of them including slurs like slut and whore.

Zerlina Maxwell, after saying on Fox that we should focus on telling men not to rape rather than telling women not to get raped, was inundated with racist, sexist rape and death threats. A few nice examples here. Fox News Guest Receives Racist Rape And Death Threats After Arguing Guns Aren't The Solution To Rape | ThinkProgress

Sexual Threats Stifle Some Female Bloggers Female participants received 25 times as many sexually explicit and malicious messages as males.


Someone created an online game that allows you to put bruises on the face of a blogger running a kickstarter campaign.This is what online harassment looks like Links to other stuff in there too.

A stroll through the results on "online harassment women" indicates that female bloggers experience sexual harassment almost universally, with comments ranging from opinions on their fuckability or appearance to repeated threats to rape both them and their mother, and posting the woman's home address. There is a ton of info on this, mostly anecdotal but all pretty depressing.