Is Feminism Still Relevant?

[Jive Turkey]

Well I can't say I disagree with that. I just feel the general tone of the article isn't particularly helpful

[jeevey]

My sense is that these subjects are uncomfortable for men no matter what the tone is. Male privilege and male guilt are real, just white privilege and white guilt. Talking about it is bound to be uncomfortable. The man in my life has an identical reaction whenever similar subjects come up.

[Jive Turkey]

Just to be clear, I'm not uncomfortable with the subject (honestly, where in any of my responses have I shown even a hint of discomfort? I speak more matter of factly on the subject than you do). Nor am I guilty. Nor do I harbor white guilt. My response to the article couldn't have been more rational. The silly sweeping generalizations and prejudices you've displayed reveal much more about you than they do about me. Let's just stick to facts

[jeevey]

You're funny. I suppose we both reveal a lot about ourselves.

[Jive Turkey]

Feel free to elaborate on that. Sounds like a kneejerk, nonsense response to me

[jeevey]

That's a response that means I think we're unlikely to get to the bottom of this in a productive way. We could go on disagreeing, but not I think in a way that's going to make our respective positions more accessible to each other.

I'm not saying that you are irrational or angry. I think our conversation has been pretty civil, and that's nice.

I'll try and explain what I mean by "uncomfortable" and "offended". I know you aren't actively pissed, because I think things would be louder in here if you were. I think you find the tone of the article not very helpful, because it places responsibility on men. I think that doesn't feel nice- the implication that individual men bear some responsibility for sexism.

You didn't create the sexist world we live in, but you benefit from it without meaning to. You have experiences women don't and escape ones that we can't. You don't do it on purpose but you can't avoid it- no man can. No white or straight person can, either- we just benefit from social attitudes that exist. I've never been followed around a store by clerk who assumes I'm a thief, because I'm a white girl. Black people do. I didn't ask for that, but I get it. You've probably never feared stranger rape in your home while enjoying an evening in by yourself, but most women have. It's just part of being a dude instead of a woman. The only thing we can do is become aware of our attitudes and try to become more aware of the experiences of others, and how we unconsciously perpetuate the negativity. It's a process gender/race/whatever studies people call checking your privilege, and it's profoundly... uncomfortable. Not pleasant, not natural, not enjoyable, discomfiting, what have you. A process of growth, not necessarily a fun one.

[Jive Turkey]

It's got nothing to do with placing the responsibility "on men". It has to do with them intentionally using a shitty quote as if that guy is representative of "all men". It exposes their bias quite clearly.
I know it helps you think you've got it all figured out, but this "male privilege guilt" you're trying to place on me is a lazy argument. Sounds like you might walk around with a bit of white guilt, but neither of those are part of my life. The whole argument reeks of Original Sin mentality. It's pseudo-psychoanalytical nonsense. Funny that the article you posted wants to dismiss Freudian analysis of women (and rightly so), but you'd like to use the same reasoning on men.
And in the case of the situation in the article, how does claiming I harbour some sort of latent guilt solve anything? I've already stated that I agree it's impolite if a man doesn't reciprocate. It's not my problem (can't wait to hear the prepackaged response to that). You seem to want to blame "men" as if we're all identical automatons. You're oversimplifying the issue to fit in with your beliefs. This isn't a "man" problem. It's an individual problem.

[jeevey]

You may be right about the original sin issue, in that I'm speaking of factual guilt, not the feeling of guilt. If I've been a jerk to somebody than I'm guilty of being unkind, whether or not I feel bad about it. If I benefit from and unconsciously perpetuate a system that oppresses others (and I do- the farmworkers who get cancer from spreading the pesticides I eat and the sweatshop laborers whose clothes I buy without pushing to improve their working conditions, for instance) than I'm guilty of colluding in their oppression, whether or not I'm aware of it, or give a fuck.

When only 25 or 30% of women are getting off in hookups, and 30% of all women are not getting off regularly with partners when they want to, (another set of statistics) then we have a problem that is both social and individual. It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

It's true that not every guy is represented by the one who said, "in a hookup I don't give a shit", but... if 90% of men are getting off in hookups and only 30% of women are, than the individual comment represents a wider social attitude that helps create that difference.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by jeevey

You may be right about the original sin issue, in that I'm speaking of factual guilt, not the feeling of guilt. If I've been a jerk to somebody than I'm guilty of being unkind, whether or not I feel bad about it. If I benefit from and unconsciously perpetuate a system that oppresses others (and I do- the farmworkers who get cancer from spreading the pesticides I eat and the sweatshop laborers whose clothes I buy without pushing to improve their working conditions, for instance) than I'm guilty of colluding in their oppression, whether or not I'm aware of it, or give a fuck.

When only 25 or 30% of women are getting off in hookups, and 30% of all women are not getting off regularly with partners when they want to, (another set of statistics) then we have a problem that is both social and individual. It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

It's true that not every guy is represented by the one who said, "in a hookup I don't give a shit", but... if 90% of men are getting off in hookups and only 30% of women are, than the individual comment represents a wider social attitude that helps create that difference.

Perhaps this may be because women prefer sex within relationships? Whether its biology or social conditioning, not all women enjoy hookups. Some have casual sex because that's what you're supposed to do in life - according to some. Or, they want casual sex but may feel guilty because others have taught them they are worthless for doing that.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

It's an individual problem in that particular men allows it to happen, and it's a social problem in that we are not as as society naming it as a problem- it's normal.

And what about the individual problem on the women's side? Are they not communicating to these men, do they keep allowing these one sided casual encounters? You seemed to have forgotten that piece of the puzzle.

[jeevey]

It's true that not all women enjoy hookups, and that there is a lack of communication around it. But that lack of communications is based around a culture- shared by men and women- that privileges male pleasure. If a man doesn't have to ask before giving a facial or choking out, let alone having an orgasm, and a woman does have to ask just to come.... that shows a fair bit about the unevenness in the sexual culture.


That last bit of rawness was from a fascinating book by Naomi Wolf called Vagina. It touches a lot on some of the issues that you mention, Pearl. She's gotten a lot of shit from traditionalists for making a lot of noise about female pleasure, and a ton of shit from feminists for presenting research that indicates that women do have an emotional/sexual (or 'brain/vagina") connection like you mention. Whether or not women really truly do or do not like to have sex in ways we traditionally think of as "masculine"- many partners without commitments or emotional bonds - is still an open question. Of course it's largely individual- some do and some don't. And it's almost impossible to tell what's biological and what's socialized.

But presumably those women hooking up would prefer to get off while they were there. And across the board, that's not happening. If all of a sudden, the roles were reversed and 75% of men didn't come in their last hookup, if 80% of men seldom or never had orgasm from penetration, if 30% of men reliably didn't come when they wanted to, that would be a national conversation. I just think that's what we should be having presently.

This site is a little lame and sensationalist, and the title is obviously obnoxious but I did think the text was more nuanced and had some interesting info.

89% of College Students Hate Hookup Culture

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

But that lack of communications is based around a culture- shared by men and women- that privileges male pleasure. If a man doesn't have to ask before giving a facial or choking out, let alone having an orgasm, and a woman does have to ask just to come.... that shows a fair bit about the unevenness in the sexual culture.

This is a cop out. You can't place the only individual blame on the male and the female blame gets lumped into the societal category. In the situation you presented above(the one I originally commented on), both individuals and society are to blame.

[Pearl]

I agree both are to blame, because not every woman is a doormat during sex. Its true many of us are conditioned to think we have to be submissive and unaware of our sexual needs. But if you look the right way, we do have permission - and the right - to own our sexuality and make sure our needs are met.

Speaking of which, I hear that in erotica books, the most popular sex scenes is when the man instinctively knows exactly what the woman wants, and she has multiple orgasms as a result. Sounds cool in fantasy, but who really wants the man to be in charge of their body and sexuality like that? That's what it comes down to, when you really think about it.

[jeevey]

Originally Posted by BVS

This is a cop out. You can't place the only individual blame on the male and the female blame gets lumped into the societal category. In the situation you presented above(the one I originally commented on), both individuals and society are to blame.

How is that a cop out? I'm not really getting it.

You are right, Pearl, that women DO have that right- as a human right. Everyone deserves it. But socially they don't feel enabled to, as that last link I posted mentions. Here's a really interesting book about women owning their desires and finding out what they want. What You Really Really Want | The Smart Girl's Shame-Free Guide to Sex and Safety I haven't had a chance to read it yet but it looks great.

Yeah, I've seen that trope in erotica. The magical lover who has no learning curve! He's omniscient!

The other one that makes me roll my eyes is when she comes multiply, uncontrollably from hard thrusting. His cock is magical and always perfect! I mean maybe that happens sometimes, but only like 30% of women come regularly from penetration at all. Yet there seems to be this idea among erotic writers- most of whom are women- that that is an ideal way to be. Like, everything would be so super if only our bodies worked that way.

But we don't really eroticize observing our partners carefully, or verbal communication, or showing them what to do... all of which are a hell of a lot easier to come by than omniscience and a magical cock.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by jeevey

The other one that makes me roll my eyes is when she comes multiply, uncontrollably from hard thrusting.

I've had girlfriends who have specifically asked for this sort of thing. Maybe before rolling your eyes, you need to recognize that all women are different. Just as all men are

[deep]

magic cock is true

I once saw a live show

[Jive Turkey]

I saw your pre-edited post, deep... I rated it 2 stars out of 10. This was an improvement

[BVS]

Originally Posted by jeevey

How is that a cop out? I'm not really getting it.

Because in essence what you are saying is that the woman as an individual has absolutely no responsibility at all in that scenario. That's rather anti-feminist of you.

[Jive Turkey]

Also, I'm reading a lot of book recommendations, but not a whole lot of substance

[Jive Turkey]

Not to keep harping on about that dumb quote, but another interesting point is how they took what that man said (regardless of how poorly he worded it), then used it in a way he never intended. The article twisted his phrasing to make it seem like he didn't "give a shit" about the women he's having sex with. The way he clearly intended was that he didn't give a shit whether the girl was his girlfriend or a hookup, he was all about making her orgasm. The the article followed up with "Well women know the difference". So this man was completely interested in pleasing his partners, but because of his poor choice of words, the author of the article decided to spin it against him. Just another example of the deceitful tactics being used.