Iraq: What to do?

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Buk

Fish.

Then I'd probably go with the salmon. Now in your truly bizarre hypothetical would the Dick be sitting at my table?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by bono_212

Just never mind, it's not worth it. Someone said he's the most hated person on FYM, I find that incredible. That was it. It then went from there, as it tends to do in this forum. I really have nothing else to say on the topic, I've agreed with everything that's been said, wasn't looking for an argument.



Because I realized I was being hyperbolic, but it didn't appear to have much to do with your post.

So it is abundantly clear to everyone: Dick Chaney is a horrible, horrible man. One of the worst things to happen to this country's government and to political relationships the world over.

Keep in mind, Deep said that. We all take him with maximum irony.

Of course, like, Assad is worse, but as democratically elected Western leaders go, he's about as bad as anyone I can think of.

[bono_212]

I didn't even notice it was Deep. I'm really feeling sick today, fwiw.

[Buk]

Originally Posted by BVS

Then I'd probably go with the salmon. Now in your truly bizarre hypothetical would the Dick be sitting at my table?

Well, if the two of you are on a date I guess he would be! But no, he is at a table across the room sitting with his wife and daughter. What does your "anger" make you do in this situation?

[Irvine511]

Which daughter?


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[PhilsFan]

I don't want to get too over-the-top here, but I think Dick Cheney is a real jerk.

[bono_212]

[LemonMelon]

Reported.

[The_Pac_Mule]

I reserve my anger for Donald Rumsfeld. A four year old child could have executed the invasion with a better result. His bumbling incompetence and lack of any real knowledge of warfare cost American and Iraqi lives and doomed any (slim) chance of a successful Iraq. If we went in full force (and fully equipped), we would have stood a much better chance locking the country down and preventing the power and security vacuum that led to eight years of sectarian violence. We didn't even have half as many troops that were really needed, and the sad fact is that the generals knew that, but their requests for more fell on deaf ears with Rumsfeld. And what pisses me off just as much is that even when shit began to fall apart, instead of listening to military commanders, recognizing the problem, and adapting to it, we (and by we I mean Rumsfeld) just let Iraq continue to go to hell until it was an inch away from complete anarchy before deciding to change strategy.

And of course statements like, "You go to war with the army you have... not the army you wish you had..." *End veteran rant*

[Kieran McConville]

Dick Cheney should be sent in to help sort out the trouble in Iraq. Alone, on foot, with full kit.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by Buk

Well, if the two of you are on a date I guess he would be! But no, he is at a table across the room sitting with his wife and daughter. What does your "anger" make you do in this situation?

My "anger" doesn't make me do anything. Unlike your hypothetical, most of us are reasonable in here.

[mikal]

Yeah. Seriously, what the fuck.

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[DaveC]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

I reserve my anger for Donald Rumsfeld. A four year old child could have executed the invasion with a better result. His bumbling incompetence and lack of any real knowledge of warfare cost American and Iraqi lives and doomed any (slim) chance of a successful Iraq. If we went in full force (and fully equipped), we would have stood a much better chance locking the country down and preventing the power and security vacuum that led to eight years of sectarian violence. We didn't even have half as many troops that were really needed, and the sad fact is that the generals knew that, but their requests for more fell on deaf ears with Rumsfeld. And what pisses me off just as much is that even when shit began to fall apart, instead of listening to military commanders, recognizing the problem, and adapting to it, we (and by we I mean Rumsfeld) just let Iraq continue to go to hell until it was an inch away from complete anarchy before deciding to change strategy.

And of course statements like, "You go to war with the army you have... not the army you wish you had..." *End veteran rant*

Forgive my ignorance of the nuances of US Cabinet politics, but is logistics the Secretary of Defence's responsibility? In Canada it's the Department of Finance who is responsible for funding all military budgets.

Rumsfeld was a shithead too. The Bush administration truly was a gang of thieves and scum. Evil? I wouldn't go that far but they certainly were pragmatic to a fault.

[digitize]

Interesting thought experiment: what would have happened in 2011 onward if the US had never invaded Iraq?

My instinct is to say that the Arab Spring would have occurred in Iraq similarly to how it occurred in Syria. There would have been mass semi-pro-democracy protests against Saddam, the secular-ish Arab nationalist dictator, they probably would have struggled and eventually led to violence, and radical groups like ISIS would have filled power vacuums just like in Syria.

Another scenario: what if the Obama Administration had kept a substantial presence on the ground in Iraq? ISIS certainly would have had a much harder time. But it's a fairly undesirable proposition to keep US troops on the ground in the Middle East forever to hold off radical Islamic groups, and it would probably breed more radical-fueling anti-colonial hatred of the US in the process.


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[PhilsFan]

If Dick Cheney was in the same restaurant as me I'd probably make some jokes about it on Twitter.

[Buk]

Originally Posted by BVS

My "anger" doesn't make me do anything. Unlike your hypothetical, most of us are reasonable in here.

Originally Posted by mikal

Yeah. Seriously, what the fuck.

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I was just responding to all the anger posted and allegations that Cheney was worse than Bin Ladin and should be in prison.

Originally Posted by digitize

Interesting thought experiment: what would have happened in 2011 onward if the US had never invaded Iraq?

My instinct is to say that the Arab Spring would have occurred in Iraq similarly to how it occurred in Syria. There would have been mass semi-pro-democracy protests against Saddam, the secular-ish Arab nationalist dictator, they probably would have struggled and eventually led to violence, and radical groups like ISIS would have filled power vacuums just like in Syria.

Another scenario: what if the Obama Administration had kept a substantial presence on the ground in Iraq? ISIS certainly would have had a much harder time. But it's a fairly undesirable proposition to keep US troops on the ground in the Middle East forever to hold off radical Islamic groups, and it would probably breed more radical-fueling anti-colonial hatred of the US in the process.


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In the first scenario, Saddam would have slaughtered the protestors. He murdered 300,000 Shia Arabs in the two months have the 1991 Gulf War when they violently revolted against the regime. He makes Assad in Syria look like a schoolgirl.
In the second scenario, the Iraqi military would have effectively responded and put down the insurgent groups as they came into the open to try and take cities and towns. Backed up by US airpower and US special forces, ISIS would not have stood a chance, and likely would not have made it across the border in such numbers.

[Irvine511]

No one said that Cheney was worse than Osama Bin Laden.

But, yes, he should be in jail.


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[deep]

i did post this

Originally Posted by deep

the most hated man in FYM?

what 10 posters in here think is not that relevant to me.

Cheney is a despicable scumbag,
immoral, amoral seems an understatement. He is lower than Osama bin Laden.

I think he has a lot more blood on his hands than OBL

[Irvine511]

Oh. Well, fair enough.


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[Diemen]

You know, "Buk", I'm surprised you haven't mentioned your favorite resolution yet.

You must be pretty addicted to keep coming back to a place that keeps kicking you out.