Iraq: What to do?

[BVS]

Fish.

Then I'd probably go with the salmon. Now in your truly bizarre hypothetical would the Dick be sitting at my table?

 

[Irvine511]

Just never mind, it's not worth it. Someone said he's the most hated person on FYM, I find that incredible. That was it. It then went from there, as it tends to do in this forum. I really have nothing else to say on the topic, I've agreed with everything that's been said, wasn't looking for an argument.



Because I realized I was being hyperbolic, but it didn't appear to have much to do with your post.

So it is abundantly clear to everyone: Dick Chaney is a horrible, horrible man. One of the worst things to happen to this country's government and to political relationships the world over.

Keep in mind, Deep said that. We all take him with maximum irony.

Of course, like, Assad is worse, but as democratically elected Western leaders go, he's about as bad as anyone I can think of.

 

[bono_212]

I didn't even notice it was Deep. I'm really feeling sick today, fwiw.

 

[Buk]

Then I'd probably go with the salmon. Now in your truly bizarre hypothetical would the Dick be sitting at my table?

Well, if the two of you are on a date I guess he would be! But no, he is at a table across the room sitting with his wife and daughter. What does your "anger" make you do in this situation?

 

[Irvine511]

Which daughter?


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[PhilsFan]

I don't want to get too over-the-top here, but I think Dick Cheney is a real jerk.

 

[bono_212]

 

[LemonMelon]

Reported.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I reserve my anger for Donald Rumsfeld. A four year old child could have executed the invasion with a better result. His bumbling incompetence and lack of any real knowledge of warfare cost American and Iraqi lives and doomed any (slim) chance of a successful Iraq. If we went in full force (and fully equipped), we would have stood a much better chance locking the country down and preventing the power and security vacuum that led to eight years of sectarian violence. We didn't even have half as many troops that were really needed, and the sad fact is that the generals knew that, but their requests for more fell on deaf ears with Rumsfeld. And what pisses me off just as much is that even when shit began to fall apart, instead of listening to military commanders, recognizing the problem, and adapting to it, we (and by we I mean Rumsfeld) just let Iraq continue to go to hell until it was an inch away from complete anarchy before deciding to change strategy.

And of course statements like, "You go to war with the army you have... not the army you wish you had..." *End veteran rant*

 

[Kieran McConville]

Dick Cheney should be sent in to help sort out the trouble in Iraq. Alone, on foot, with full kit.

 

[BVS]

Well, if the two of you are on a date I guess he would be! But no, he is at a table across the room sitting with his wife and daughter. What does your "anger" make you do in this situation?

My "anger" doesn't make me do anything. Unlike your hypothetical, most of us are reasonable in here.

 

[mikal]

Yeah. Seriously, what the fuck.

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[DaveC]

I reserve my anger for Donald Rumsfeld. A four year old child could have executed the invasion with a better result. His bumbling incompetence and lack of any real knowledge of warfare cost American and Iraqi lives and doomed any (slim) chance of a successful Iraq. If we went in full force (and fully equipped), we would have stood a much better chance locking the country down and preventing the power and security vacuum that led to eight years of sectarian violence. We didn't even have half as many troops that were really needed, and the sad fact is that the generals knew that, but their requests for more fell on deaf ears with Rumsfeld. And what pisses me off just as much is that even when shit began to fall apart, instead of listening to military commanders, recognizing the problem, and adapting to it, we (and by we I mean Rumsfeld) just let Iraq continue to go to hell until it was an inch away from complete anarchy before deciding to change strategy.

And of course statements like, "You go to war with the army you have... not the army you wish you had..." *End veteran rant*

Forgive my ignorance of the nuances of US Cabinet politics, but is logistics the Secretary of Defence's responsibility? In Canada it's the Department of Finance who is responsible for funding all military budgets.

Rumsfeld was a shithead too. The Bush administration truly was a gang of thieves and scum. Evil? I wouldn't go that far but they certainly were pragmatic to a fault.

 

[digitize]

Interesting thought experiment: what would have happened in 2011 onward if the US had never invaded Iraq?

My instinct is to say that the Arab Spring would have occurred in Iraq similarly to how it occurred in Syria. There would have been mass semi-pro-democracy protests against Saddam, the secular-ish Arab nationalist dictator, they probably would have struggled and eventually led to violence, and radical groups like ISIS would have filled power vacuums just like in Syria.

Another scenario: what if the Obama Administration had kept a substantial presence on the ground in Iraq? ISIS certainly would have had a much harder time. But it's a fairly undesirable proposition to keep US troops on the ground in the Middle East forever to hold off radical Islamic groups, and it would probably breed more radical-fueling anti-colonial hatred of the US in the process.


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[PhilsFan]

If Dick Cheney was in the same restaurant as me I'd probably make some jokes about it on Twitter.

 

[Buk]

My "anger" doesn't make me do anything. Unlike your hypothetical, most of us are reasonable in here.

Yeah. Seriously, what the fuck.

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I was just responding to all the anger posted and allegations that Cheney was worse than Bin Ladin and should be in prison.

Interesting thought experiment: what would have happened in 2011 onward if the US had never invaded Iraq?

My instinct is to say that the Arab Spring would have occurred in Iraq similarly to how it occurred in Syria. There would have been mass semi-pro-democracy protests against Saddam, the secular-ish Arab nationalist dictator, they probably would have struggled and eventually led to violence, and radical groups like ISIS would have filled power vacuums just like in Syria.

Another scenario: what if the Obama Administration had kept a substantial presence on the ground in Iraq? ISIS certainly would have had a much harder time. But it's a fairly undesirable proposition to keep US troops on the ground in the Middle East forever to hold off radical Islamic groups, and it would probably breed more radical-fueling anti-colonial hatred of the US in the process.


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In the first scenario, Saddam would have slaughtered the protestors. He murdered 300,000 Shia Arabs in the two months have the 1991 Gulf War when they violently revolted against the regime. He makes Assad in Syria look like a schoolgirl.
In the second scenario, the Iraqi military would have effectively responded and put down the insurgent groups as they came into the open to try and take cities and towns. Backed up by US airpower and US special forces, ISIS would not have stood a chance, and likely would not have made it across the border in such numbers.

 

[Irvine511]

No one said that Cheney was worse than Osama Bin Laden.

But, yes, he should be in jail.


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[deep]

i did post this

the most hated man in FYM?

what 10 posters in here think is not that relevant to me.

Cheney is a despicable scumbag,
immoral, amoral seems an understatement. He is lower than Osama bin Laden.

I think he has a lot more blood on his hands than OBL

 

[Irvine511]

Oh. Well, fair enough.


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[Diemen]

You know, "Buk", I'm surprised you haven't mentioned your favorite resolution yet.

You must be pretty addicted to keep coming back to a place that keeps kicking you out.

 

[bono_212]

Buk... An alter?! Nooooooooooooooo

 

[deep]

You know, "Buk", I'm surprised you haven't mentioned your favorite resolution yet.

You must be pretty addicted to keep coming back to a place that keeps kicking you out.

was this necessary??

a little back and forth in here is not to be tolerated?


can we be allowed to discuss opinions and present arguments on their own merits ?

 

[corianderstem]

I'm going to stop saying "welcome" to new people, because it almost always turns out to be an alter who'd been banned before.

 

[JOFO]

So sad that the Iraq war accomplished nothing positive, only negative. So many lives lost, so much that will continue to haunt generations to come.

The argument that the U.S. got rid of Saddam Hussein, the evil dictator, is no longer viable. As atrocious as he was, he kept the country from slipping into the hands of terror groups, ala Afghanistan. And THAT, is exactly what the U.S. (and all western countries) should fear happening to Iraq, which is why the U.S. will never be able to wash it's hands at the situation, never be able to sleep easy that Iraq is a free "democracy", never be able to close the Pandora's Box that Bush/Cheney opened.

So sad for the Iraqi people, that they will never know a peaceful day in their lives.

What to do? I've no idea. I think Obama has acted as about as smartly as one could given the situation. Was he right to pull U.S. troops out in 2011? Yes.
Will U.S. troops eventually be sent in again (in terms of more than 50,000)? I would say yes, probably within the next 10 years, especially if there is a republican elected president.

A terrible world for our children to inherit.

But then, I guess it always has been.

Around and around we go. Where we stop, nobody knows.

 

[Irvine511]

At least it's not Gallipoli! Or Stalingrad! Or Hiroshima!


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[DaveC]

I was just responding to all the anger posted and allegations that Cheney was worse than Bin Ladin and should be in prison.

I think the only real difference between Cheney and Bin Laden was geographical and logistic. Cheney certainly has a much higher body count. He would have fit in nicely in Stalin's little club.

In the first scenario, Saddam would have slaughtered the protestors. He murdered 300,000 Shia Arabs in the two months have the 1991 Gulf War when they violently revolted against the regime. He makes Assad in Syria look like a schoolgirl.

I think it likely would have played out similar to Libya - keep in mind Iraq has a lot of oil, whereas Syria has none. I think the no-fly zones would have probably been re-established and the Shia would have carved out their own autonomous area in the south of Iraq similar to the way the Kurds have, and Saddam would have been reduced to at most an area in the Sunni centre of the country. I doubt he would have been overthrown outright but I don't think he would have gotten away with wholesale slaughter during the Arab Spring.

In the second scenario, the Iraqi military would have effectively responded and put down the insurgent groups as they came into the open to try and take cities and towns. Backed up by US airpower and US special forces, ISIS would not have stood a chance, and likely would not have made it across the border in such numbers.

The Iraqi military wouldn't have been equipped to fight ISIS, supporting arms or no. They are notorious for desertion at the slightest sign of resistance, along with the Afghani army, although a lot of the "paycheck soldiers" are gone from the Afghan Army at this point from what I've heard. The only way that the advance would have been stopped would be with an effective US-led counter-offensive. As it stands I still think the only way this is going to happen, and I fully expect there to be 3 new nation states (Kurd/Shia/Sunni) once this is over, a situation I seriously doubt will last too long as the Iraqis won't want another Afghanistan on their western border, and I'm sure the Saudis won't appreciate a dedicated Shia state to the north either.

If you thought the Middle East was hell now, just wait till you see what's coming, folks.

was this necessary??

a little back and forth in here is not to be tolerated?


can we be allowed to discuss opinions and present arguments on their own merits ?

Indeed, Buk is entitled to share their opinion whether I think it's silly or not, and I don't think that he or she did so in a way that merited a wrist slap by the moderators. Unless there is something else going on that we don't know about.

 

[DaveC]

The argument that the U.S. got rid of Saddam Hussein, the evil dictator, is no longer viable. As atrocious as he was, he kept the country from slipping into the hands of terror groups, ala Afghanistan. And THAT, is exactly what the U.S. (and all western countries) should fear happening to Iraq, which is why the U.S. will never be able to wash it's hands at the situation, never be able to sleep easy that Iraq is a free "democracy", never be able to close the Pandora's Box that Bush/Cheney opened.

So sad for the Iraqi people, that they will never know a peaceful day in their lives.

I've often wondered if an honest poll could be taken of all Iraqis, would they say they were better off under Saddam? Of course that opinion would be divided among religious/ethnic groups but I wonder if the majority would indeed say that they were better off.

The saddest thing is how the Iraqi people have been used as pawns in all of this. Nobody considered what they truly wanted ("greeted as liberators" was a complete assumption) before the war began, Maliki doesn't care about anything other than having a death grip on power, and ISIS certainly couldn't give less of a shit about what the people want. Such a waste of an entire generation.

 

[DaveC]

At least it's not Gallipoli! Or Stalingrad! Or Hiroshima!


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This is just like the first day of the Battle of the Somme, for realz.

 

[Diemen]

was this necessary??

a little back and forth in here is not to be tolerated?


can we be allowed to discuss opinions and present arguments on their own merits ?

Not when the person has been banned from the forum and keeps trying to sneak back in, no.

 

[JOFO]

Also, anyone in the U.S., or any western countries for that matter, but especially the U.S., and especially those in the NYC area, will also never truly know any days of "peace" as long as there are such possible breeding grounds for jihadists like Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria or other nations. Not if you truly understand that this jihad against Americans is not over.
If I were such an extremist, I know for sure I would have a bullseye on the "Freedom Tower", now called One World Trade Center.
I mean, what better way to get back at the U.S. than taking that down?
A shameful world we have created for our children to inherit. Fear, hatred, revenge, evilness. Shameful that people of all nations do not care about the world we hand over to our children; more concerned with revenge, avenging, and continued divide among all.
Disgusting.