IMF Head Dominique Strauss Kahn held on attempted rape charges

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I tend to think in a legal manner. I tend to think in regards to presumed innocence before guilt.

I am not not into McCarthyism or public lynchings.

Let the courts decide.

And apparently you also tend to think in a manner that thinks that a joke of that nature at the expense of a victim (who in your mind you have already deemed a liar) is completely OK.

What you've done is taking the "Presumed Innocent" mindset so far that you've gone completely in the opposite direction, and are now making jests at the expense of someone you know NOTHING about and have no clue what happened to. None.

I'm not OK with people crying rape, and if were to find out that this is a set-up, I'll be furious. But it's one thing to feel that way, and another to spend all of your time and energy pointing out the victim's "character" flaws (apparently one of which is being from the mystical land of "Africa".)

When I was in high school, a friend of mine was raped. The week before that, someone else I knew had consensual sex with another friend of mine. She was embarrassed that she'd done it, so decided to say he'd raped her. The fiasco became such a thing around my school, that when my friend was actually raped a week later, she was too afraid to go to the police.

I'm the first person who's going to tell you that crying rape is wrong. So wrong, that especially in instances like above, I feel like the person possibly should be charged with a crime. But, we don't know what's happened here yet. And until we do, you can't pass judgement either way.
 
canedge said:
That approach doesn't make great men or women. I am of the "to make an omlette you have to break eggs" school of thought which of course will not win many fans in a rape case. When people have large ambitions and consequential actions there is going to be fallout. My point is that sometimes the law is petty comapred to peoples ambitions.

Sure. Just another great man rapin' through "Africa" on his way up the political ladder.

If you're going to follow the egg-breaking logic (you are correct that it's unpopular here, especially when describing it as "logic" is generous), I would like to hear an explanation for the practical purpose of rape in a political context. Personally, I can and do fault great men for their poorer actions, and they should face the full penalty of law. If every man is capable of criminal actions, no man should be assumed to be a saint, regardless of their accomplishments. Those accomplishments are relevant in practice because they sway public opinion and cloud objectivity, but they shouldn't be. In this instance, it was a personal choice, not a creation of the lying media, unless of course it's comprised of "Africans," in which case you can never be too suspicious.
 
As to the stratification issues... again, you're going to need to clarify, because to me it sounds like you're blaming the maid for this whole situation. Is a man not responsible for his actions?

Of course he is responsible for his actions. What I was trying to express with my poor choice of words, in using stratification, was that on some places on earth where the given society favours a demographic and they carrry that baggage to their adopted country. When I hear the rapper M.I.A. speak her mind for example, I see echoes of the social dynamic that she grew up in.
Kanye West is another one whose upbringing is reflected in his lyrics.

It is not unreasonable to suggest that a black/white rich/poor developing world/manhattan dynamic is at play here. What I am trying to do is probe plausable dynamics that could be realted to this scenario.

But as Bono 212 mentioned, we'll wait until the courts decide.
 
You've really said some appalling things in this last month, but this really takes the cake. And your explanation is even making it worse.

What can we say about your upbringing and why you say these things you do?
 
There is no point in have a rational discussion about rape. It is not a rational subject matter. It is so emotionally charged that discussing it is pointless as it only ends in hurt feelings.

The capacity for misunderstanding on the internet is large and often things get lost in translation, misunderstood.

Once again, goodbye.
 
If multiple people are telling you that what you're saying is appalling, maybe you need to take a harder look at what you're trying to say and how you're saying it, rather than just saying it's been lost in translation.
 
One can always have a rational discussion, even about the most emotional of subjects, as long as one remembers that there are always multiple sides to a story.

Also avoiding generalizations about a whole continent and race usually help too.
 
Again, not seeking justifications for his work but I hate it when good men, whose work benefits all, get taken down by a sex scandal. It seems that it nullifies their sacrfices and achievements. Like it would be a shame if some man cured cancer and then someone discredited by revealing accusations of an illicit sex act. I just think one outweighs the other.

I don't know what should frighten me more. That you think doing something good gives one a free pass on any crime, but especially something like rape, or that you think the IMF is of great benefit to all.
 
Kanye West is another one whose upbringing is reflected in his lyrics.

It is not unreasonable to suggest that a black/white rich/poor developing world/manhattan dynamic is at play here.



just as an FYI, Kanye grew up very middle class in the mostly white suburb of Oak Lawn, IL, his mother was a professor and was chair of the English Department at her university.
 
You know what I think is most hilarious about your absurd statements, canedge?

I also find it interesting that the accusser is from Africa. Maybe allgeations and such are common place in that continent buts lets wait until the courts decide.

I think that being from "Africa" has alot to do with it. It might be socially acceptable to extort money from powerful people in Africa but not over here.

You are just randomly speculating that MAYBE people there MIGHT think it socially acceptable to make false charges of rape for the purposes of extortion. You don't actually have any facts. You don't have any information about cultural attitudes there. You don't even realise that "Africa" is not one homogenous continent-wide society. You're just running with arbitrary hypotheses because this woman has the audacity to be from somewhere in Africa rather than New York or London or Vancouver or some other good ol' Western city. You should actually do some bloody research before spouting off about other societies you admit you know nothing about, and there's no "might" or "maybe" about it.
 
I tend to think in a legal manner. I tend to think in regards to presumed innocence before guilt.

I am not not into McCarthyism or public lynchings.

Let the courts decide.

What does Africa have to do with any of that? Aren't you presuming things about her?


http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/DSKs-DNA-Found-on-Maids-Shirt-Source-122463309.html

"A DNA sample taken from Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former IMF chief accused of sexually assaulting a hotel maid, has been matched to material found on the maid's shirt, sources familiar with the case tell NBC New York.

The 32-year-old Sofitel maid has told police that Strauss-Kahn groped her, locked her in a bedroom and forced her to perform oral sex.

Sources familiar with the case say material on her shirt matched Strauss-Kahn's DNA. Another source says DNA testing on other evidence from the scene is continuing."




He also allegedly hit on two different receptionists at the hotel. Of course that doesn't make him a rapist-but maybe, it's possible that he wanted some sex and was going to get some in whatever way he chose. Not presuming that, but it's possible.
 
Africa has nothing to do with it, especially when he started talking about MIA and Kanye, he was just trying to find a way to say "black people".
 
well, back to the case.

seems the woman was clearly traumatized, there is semen on her uniform, she ran out of the room and began spitting on the walls in order to preserve whatever DNA remnants might have been leftover from forced oral sex, there's a gash on his back from where she pushed him into an armoire and blood on the furniture.

how "consensual" does this sound to you? is this really of less concern than a "perp walk"?
 
Oh, that's why she was spitting. I had read that she was extremely upset for a while afterward and was spitting on the walls, but the article made it sound like that was just part of her being "extremely upset." I should have figured.

Ugh.
 
in fairness:

New York police deny Strauss-Kahn DNA report
May 24 08:05 AM US/Eastern


New York police on Tuesday denied reports of finding DNA traces from ex-IMF chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn on the clothes of a hotel maid, saying investigators had so far given "no result and no information" about the test results.

DNA was found on the shirt of the 32-year-old woman who said she was attacked in Strauss Kahn's New York hotel suite, according to NBC and ABC television.

The DNA matched sperm on the collar of the maid's shirt, according to The Wall Street Journal and France 2 television channel.

All of the media quoted sources close to the investigation. But neither prosecutors nor Strauss-Kahn's lawyers would comment on the reports.

The evidence could prove that there was a sexual encounter but not that there was violence of any kind, experts said.

Strauss-Kahn has denied charges made against him. The French politician, who is racing to find a new home, told his former staff how he is confronting a "personal nightmare".

Under house arrest pending trial, he has been rejected by one luxury residence because of his newfound notoriety and must soon leave his temporary apartment.

Charges that he attempted to rape and sexually assault the chambermaid on May 14 forced him to resign as head of the International Monetary Fund last week and torpedoed his chances of standing in the French presidential election next year.

But Strauss-Kahn again denied the accusations in an email message sent to IMF staff Sunday in which he expressed "profound sadness" at the way he left his $450,000-a-year tax-free post.

"I deny in the strongest possible terms the allegations which I now face; I am confident that the truth will come out and I will be exonerated," he wrote.

"In the meantime, I cannot accept that the Fund --- and you dear colleagues -- should in any way have to share my own personal nightmare. So, I had to go."

Strauss-Kahn is holed up in the Empire Building at 71 Broadway, where management has apologized to residents and said the new arrival will be gone by "early" this week.

His wealthy wife, French television journalist Anne Sinclair, had previously arranged a $15,000 a month apartment on the Upper East Side. But Strauss-Kahn was rejected after residents complained about the bad publicity.

Sinclair left the Broadway apartment for a few hours on Sunday on what was believed to be part of the new hunt for a home. She has suspended her blog about American life.

"Dear reader, many, many many of you have sent me messages," Sinclair wrote. "I cannot answer everybody, but know that these touched me and helped me."

"You will understand the circumstances that have forced me to temporarily suspend this blog. All I can say is, a bientot."

While Strauss-Kahn gets used to bail life wearing an ankle bracelet and being forced to stay in an apartment under the watch of video surveillance and and armed guard around the clock, the legal battle is heightening even before his next court appearance on June 6 to make a formal plea.

His lawyer Benjamin Brafman visited Strauss-Kahn on Monday. He has said his client will plead not guilty and that he is confident his client will go free.

The defense team has hired a posse of private investigators who, according to media reports, are already sifting through the 32-year-old accuser's personal history in New York and her native Guinea in West Africa.

Prosecutors told Strauss-Kahn's bail hearing last week that they are also building a "strong" case in support of the accusations.

Strauss-Kahn was arrested on an Air France flight just as it was about to leave New York's John F. Kennedy airport, a few hours after the alleged attack. He spent the first days in detention at the notorious Rikers island jail.

He now faces seven counts, including the attempted rape charge.

Ian Weinstein, a law professor at Fordham University in New York, said that if convicted at trial, "a sentence of 10 years in prison is entirely likely, and a sentence higher than that is entirely possible."

New York police deny Strauss-Kahn DNA report
 
dsk-426--130693712155774000.jpg
 
^That picture speaks volumes


(AP)NEW YORK — A hotel is promising to buy "panic buttons" for its housekeepers and start sexual harassment training after an Egyptian businessman was accused of attacking a maid in one of its rooms.

The New York police commissioner warned Wednesday that the case, the second high-profile accusation by a New York hotel housekeeper in a month, may be harder to prosecute because The Pierre Hotel waited 15 hours to report it.

The Pierre and the Sofitel Hotel, where the then-leader of the International Monetary Fund was accused of assaulting a maid on May 14, have both told labor officials they will give housekeepers wireless devices to alert managers if they are attacked, the New York Hotel and Motel Trades Council said.

The union said it will call for such devices as part of its contract negotiations with 150 hotels next year, and a state legislator has proposed a bill requiring the devices statewide.

When such attacks are alleged, they must be reported to authorities as soon as possible in order to gather forensic evidence that helps in prosecuting them, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.

In the most recent case, the 44-year-old hotel maid told her supervisor immediately that she had been attacked Sunday evening by Mahmoud Abdel Salam Omar, a businessman and former chairman of a major Egyptian bank.

The supervisor waited until the following morning to alert the security director, who then contacted police. The hotel suspended the housekeeping supervisor.

Kelly said that there is often a delay in reporting sexual assaults, and that the department believes the instances are underreported, because victims feel embarrassed and ashamed. But he has no indication that there were instances of hotels sweeping complaints under the rug.

He said he would look into whether the department needed to reach out to hotels across the city to impress the importance of reporting crimes quickly.

"We can only say that it's very important for the investigation to call and have a police response as quickly as possible," he said.

Omar was arraigned early Wednesday on two counts of sexual abuse and forcible touching. Authorities said he locked the woman in the room after calling the front desk to request tissues, then sexually assaulted her. His lawyer, Liz Beal, told the court that her client "adamantly denies the charges against him."

It was the second recent instance in which a high-profile man was accused of sexually attacking a hotel maid in New York. Dominique Strauss-Kahn, a former presidential contender in France, was arrested in May on charges he forced himself on a maid after locking her in his room. He resigned as head of the IMF but has denied the charges, as have his lawyers.

The two cases have cast light on the potential dangers faced by hotel housekeepers, and have increased pressure on hotels to do something about it.

"The problem of hotel maids being inappropriately groped or propositioned has been known for a long time," said Rory Lancman, a New York state assemblyman from Queens. "They need to have as much protection as possible, and that means equipment and that means policies that protect them."

Lancman, who heads the assembly's subcommittee on workplace issues, filed a bill last month that would require hotels to give single-button alert devices to any employees who regularly enter guest rooms. The Hotel Association of New York City, which represents about 200 hotel owners, said it was studying the proposal.

The Pierre has decided to buy the buttons for its housekeeping staff, said Nora Walsh, a spokeswoman for the hotel. The Pierre was also holding extra training sessions for housekeepers and managers to remind them that they must report attacks immediately to police, she said.

"We're committed to doing it because we want to provide the safest and most secure environment for our room attendants to be working in," Walsh said.

The Sofitel has also promised union officials it will buy the equipment, said John Turchiano, a spokesman for the trades council. A spokeswoman for the Sofitel, Stacy Royal, would not confirm that, saying she could not discuss the hotel's security measures.

Anthony Roman, a hotel security expert, said panic button systems can be complicated and are not a "silver bullet" protection against assaults. The devices must be small and inconspicuous so that an assailant cannot remove them easily. They also must include a locating device that works indoors so security guards can find an employee in trouble.

Turchiano said the trades council planned to demand panic buttons during its 2012 negotiations for a new collective bargaining agreement covering 29,000 workers at 150 New York City hotels. But the Pierre case shows that supervisors must also be trained to take action when a call for help comes, he said.

"This employee's supervisor, frankly, did not do the right thing," Turchiano said. "You don't just enter something like that in a logbook. You call security and you do something about it."

Walsh said that the Pierre's housekeeper was on paid leave, and that the hotel had hired a counselor for her and her family.
 
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