"I Am A Ukrainian"

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS

They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.

Its all about money, sadly.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS

Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.

There's going to be a referendum at the end of this month re: Crimea from what I believe.

If you're going to strip a country of a sporting event due to abuses of human rights you may as well cancel the Olympics/World Cup for good.

[Steve_Bono]

Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

KIEV/BALACLAVA, Ukraine (Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized on Sunday for war and called up its reserves, after Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to invade in the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.
Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced. The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct the call-up, potentially of all men up to 40 in a country that still has universal male conscription.

Russian forces who have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where most of the population are ethnic Russian and Moscow has a naval base - tried to disarm the small Ukrainian contingents there on Sunday. Some Ukrainian commanders refused to give up weapons and bases were surrounded.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, leading a pro-European government that took power after Moscow ally Viktor Yanukovich fled a week ago, said Russian armed action "would be the beginning of war and the end of any relations between Ukraine and Russia".

Russian news agencies reported that Moscow's troops had disarmed Ukrainians at several small bases.
Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television he had refused to surrender.
"A truck with troops of the Russian Federation, armed with rifles, helmets and bullet-proof vests arrived at our checkpoint and suggested we give up our weapons and accept the protection of the armed forces of the Russian Federation," he said.
"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.
"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."
Ukrainian marines were barricaded into a base in Feodosia, a Crimean port. Russia appealed for them to back the "legitimate" - pro-Russian - regional leadership.
Their commander, Dmytro Delyatytskiy, told Ukraine's Channel 5 by telephone Russian troops had demanded they give up their weapons by 10 a.m. and they refused.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."

. Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

[dazzledbylight]

no to Russia's bullying AND no to EU's "economic reform" = austerity measures

fuck

[Steve_Bono]

Launching and unprovoked invasion of another country is far more than just bullying. I have yet to see any justification for what Russia has done over the past few days. There is no evidence that even a single ethnic Russian in Crimea has been attacked based on their ethnicity or language. At the same time, Russian military forces have fired shots at Ukrainian troops and ordered them to give up their weapons. On what grounds do Russian soldiers have the right to tell Ukrainian troops on their own territory, in their own military bases, to surrender? It is incredible the amount of restraint that Ukraine has shown. Its clear that Putin was hoping that there would be clashes in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine in order to give him a stronger pre-text to send in even more troops and the first troops into eastern Ukraine, but that has not happened. Russian troops must withdraw immediately! Ukraine is an independent state and has its own military and police force that can handle any alleged human rights violations should they occur.

Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS

Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.

The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Aygo

The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.

Guess what, Ukraine has history prior to it being gradually annexed into the Russian Empire. The Crimea was always part of the Ukraine. It was only part of Russian Federation from 1920 to 1954. For the overwhelming portion of Ukraine's history, Crimea has been apart of the Ukraine. In fact, Russia did not have any control of the Crimea until 1783. In 1783, 95% of the Crimea was ethnic Tarters as was much of southern Ukraine. Over the next century and a half, the Tarters were removed from Crimea and replaced with Russians. Ethnic cleansing indeed.

What happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a disaster.

In other news today, Hillary Clinton has compared Putin to Adolf Hitler!

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.

So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?

Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.

I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.

This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.

Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he wants to replicate/return to the Soviet Union, but agreed that he/they think they gave way too much up (power, prestige, territory) and will try and claw some back wherever possible. There are semi-legit strategic motives (they genuinely see the EU and NATO as a threat – you could disagree or think they’re paranoid, but pushing back on both whenever they can they feel is a legit, important thing to do for their own security) and purely political motives, i.e. regaining territory and influence, especially while giving the EU/NATO/US a bloody nose, obviously strengthens Putin. There are also – as there always are – a number of other things going on that surely are all now (back) on the negotiating table. Syria, Iran etc. Who is in more of a position of strength at the negotiating table right now? I’d say it’s definitely Russia.

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.

My mistake, I did mean to write ‘lower’ gas prices, not raise. Regardless, I would think that deflating Russia’s economy and thus Putin would only lead him to push further in ways like this to maintain his standing and power. I think he’d play it fairly easily (for the home audience) and send Russia more insular, more unpredictable, more aggressive. Economically weakening Russia is a response, but not a solution.

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.

It seems all the world leaders are clamouring to condemn and suggest hard economic punishment… as long as it doesn’t include X… because we make good money from that… but everyone else should sanction everything else!

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.

So what if a Crimean referendum is held – and declared by all independent (EU, US, UN) inspectors to be free and fair – and it comes in at, say, 80% in favour of joining Russia? Hard to ignore. Tie it with further guarantees on remaining Ukrainian territorial sovereignty (traded off against how and when or to what level Ukraine could or couldn’t ever fully join up with NATO) and protections for minorities (which don’t really mean anything – and probably traded with bullshit protections for Russians in Ukraine that look to legitimise Putin’s logic from the start) with some further background trade-offs that favour the US in Syria and Iran… It’s ugly and you could call it ‘appeasement’ and draw comparisons there, but there’s not much that could be done about it. EU/US/IMF have their man in Kiev now – they’ll get to destroy a generation of the rest of the Ukrainians in their own special way.

Having said all that, this is just Crimea – any excursion into Eastern Ukraine proper and I’d say all bets are off.

[Vlad n U 2]

A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.

Paet: "All the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers from both sides, policemen and people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides. ... Some photos that showed it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it is really disturbing that now the new coalition they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."
Ashton: "I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh."
Paet: "It already discreditates (sic) this new coalition."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)

I was going to post that, but I didn't know if it was real of fake. Now I see that it was confirmed as authentic.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)

Alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant compared to Russia's illegal unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. The only one behaving like a fascist is Putin.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he wants to replicate/return to the Soviet Union, but agreed that he/they think they gave way too much up (power, prestige, territory) and will try and claw some back wherever possible. There are semi-legit strategic motives (they genuinely see the EU and NATO as a threat – you could disagree or think they’re paranoid, but pushing back on both whenever they can they feel is a legit, important thing to do for their own security) and purely political motives, i.e. regaining territory and influence, especially while giving the EU/NATO/US a bloody nose, obviously strengthens Putin. There are also – as there always are – a number of other things going on that surely are all now (back) on the negotiating table. Syria, Iran etc. Who is in more of a position of strength at the negotiating table right now? I’d say it’s definitely Russia.

NATO is and has always been a defensive Alliance and has never maintained the number of military formations necessary to truly be an offensive threat to the Soviet Union or Russia. The same cannot be said for Moscow vs. NATO and the rest of Europe. The only thing NATO threatens is Russia's ability to reconquer new independent states in Europe. That's certainly not a bad thing and has helped keep much of Europe at peace.

My mistake, I did mean to write ‘lower’ gas prices, not raise. Regardless, I would think that deflating Russia’s economy and thus Putin would only lead him to push further in ways like this to maintain his standing and power. I think he’d play it fairly easily (for the home audience) and send Russia more insular, more unpredictable, more aggressive. Economically weakening Russia is a response, but not a solution.

History shows that when there is no price to pay for illegal actions, they will certainly be repeated and the actions will often become even more brazen. Russia was far less willing to interfere with the West and other countries in the 1990s when Russia was economically weak.

So what if a Crimean referendum is held – and declared by all independent (EU, US, UN) inspectors to be free and fair – and it comes in at, say, 80% in favour of joining Russia? Hard to ignore. Tie it with further guarantees on remaining Ukrainian territorial sovereignty (traded off against how and when or to what level Ukraine could or couldn’t ever fully join up with NATO) and protections for minorities (which don’t really mean anything – and probably traded with bullshit protections for Russians in Ukraine that look to legitimise Putin’s logic from the start) with some further background trade-offs that favour the US in Syria and Iran… It’s ugly and you could call it ‘appeasement’ and draw comparisons there, but there’s not much that could be done about it. EU/US/IMF have their man in Kiev now – they’ll get to destroy a generation of the rest of the Ukrainians in their own special way.

Why should Ukraine be forced to give up the Crimea based on a simple referendum? Why was there no referendum by Crimea in 1991 when the Ukraine became and independent country or in the 22 years since then? This sudden push for Crimean independence or Crimea joining Russia appears to be new.

Would Russia allow Chechnya to leave Russia based on a simple referendum? I think not given the thousands of Chechens that have been killed over the past 20 years. If Russia will not allow Chechnya or any other area of Russia to leave Russia, why must Ukraine be forced to let the Crimea leave?

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant compared to Russia's illegal unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. The only one behaving like a fascist is Putin.

If it was against Putin or Russia, you'd say that it's 100% real and proved as true. Because it puts those that the media paint as "good guys" in the same trash bin as Putin, you say that it's "alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant".

[Vlad n U 2]

Clearly the folks with white supremacist insignia aren't fascists, it's definitely Putin who's the fascist! (despite being a socially conservative neoliberal, but hey)

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Aygo

If it was against Putin or Russia, you'd say that it's 100% real and proved as true. Because it puts those that the media paint as "good guys" in the same trash bin as Putin, you say that it's "alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant".

The fact remains, its an unproven allegation. It is a fact that Putin has invaded the Ukraine sighting reasons that are the same as Hitler's move into Czechoslovakia. Why you would cling to an unproven allegation and essentially ignore Putin's invasion of Ukraine is unusual.

Clearly the folks with white supremacist insignia aren't fascists, it's definitely Putin who's the fascist! (despite being a socially conservative neoliberal, but hey)

Vlad, wearing or not wearing an insignia does not signify what a person is. Look at the persons actions? Has anyone from the Ukraine invaded Russia under the idea of allegedly protecting a certain ethnic group? No. But this is what Putin has done in the Ukraine. An illegal, unprovoked invasion of a another country justified under trumped up allegations of needing to defend ethnic Russians in the Crimea. Hitler made the same claim for his moves in Czechoslovakia in 1938. Oh, and just because Russian troops don't wear insignia identifying them as Russian troops does not change the fact that they are Russian troops.

[Irvine511]

I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.

[Earnie Shavers]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.

On paper, ie Putin's reasoning, it's way closer to Panama in 1989.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.

It's worthless. From the begininng of the thread, Steve_Bono adopted an attitude of "if you're not with me, you're against me"... Which, in fact is an attitude typical of totalitarian leaders like, for instance, the same Putin he claims being the only devil in the world.