"I Am A Ukrainian"

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He does remind me of some Eastern Europeans I've come across online, the sort who seem to have a deep seated hatred of anything Russian and an almost unconditional support of anything Western/EU/NATO. But then after a bit of thought this attitude can also apply to American conservatives and a portion of liberals.


It's American neo-conservativism through and through. The type of thinking that led to the Iraq War and dominated America foreign policy in the early '00's.

But this is about Ukraine.

I am learning a lot from you folks, and had forgotten how fascinating Russian history is.
 
For anyone curious about the Ukrainian east/west divide, it goes back a long way ...

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And now:

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And in comes the IMF:

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For anyone curious about the Ukrainian east/west divide, it goes back a long way ...

And in comes the IMF:

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Steinmeier not only is the Foreign Affairs Minister, he also is the leader of the SPD (social-democratic party of Germany). Which strengthens the thesis that Germany (under the EU cover) is also under all this. First, we know that Klitschko and the UDAR are being financed by Merkel's CDU/CSU (and the Adenauer Foundation) and that he and his twin brother are friends and have been followed by Guido Westerwelle (former Foreign Affairs Minister - until November 2013, ex-leader of the FDP, the right-wing liberal party). Now, as I predicted and suspected, we see the SPD (the other "big party of Government" with CDU/CSU) pushing Ukraine into a bailout, followed by the agenda and conditions I previously mentioned.
 
Steinmeier not only is the Foreign Affairs Minister, he also is the leader of the SPD (social-democratic party of Germany). Which strengthens the thesis that Germany (under the EU cover) is also under all this. First, we know that Klitschko and the UDAR are being financed by Merkel's CDU/CSU (and the Adenauer Foundation) and that he and his twin brother are friends and have been followed by Guido Westerwelle (former Foreign Affairs Minister - until November 2013, ex-leader of the FDP, the right-wing liberal party). Now, as I predicted and suspected, we see the SPD (the other "big party of Government" with CDU/CSU) pushing Ukraine into a bailout, followed by the agenda and conditions I previously mentioned.

I'm getting the impression that the US are not liking Merkel's involvement with Klitschko/UDAR, at least it's this article from several days ago that suggests it may be the case. The US diplomat and ambassador to Ukraine are seriously considering the idea of allowing Tyagnybok anywhere near the government, which I think is not particularly surprising and doesn't suggest that they care about what a fascist with significant influence could bring.

I don't remember where I read it but I do remember reading that Ukraine needs $35 billion to keep itself afloat over the next 2 years or something along the lines of that.
 
Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin ordered an urgent drill to test the combat readiness of the armed forces across western Russia on Wednesday, flexing Moscow's military muscle amid tension with the West over Ukraine.

"In accordance with an order from the president of the Russian Federation, forces of the Western Military District were put on alert at 1400 (0500 ET) today," the Interfax news agency quoted Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu as saying.

The western district encompasses most of western Russia and borders Ukraine, which lies between NATO nations and Russia.

The United States and European nations have warned Russia against military intervention in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic that Putin has called a "brother nation" and wants to be part of a Eurasian Union he is building in the region.

Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Monday that Russia's interests and its citizens in Ukraine were under threat, language reminiscent of statements justifying Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008, when he was president.

the drill would be conducted in two stages, ending on March 3, and also involved the command centers of Russia's Air and Space Defence forces, paratroops and long-range aviation as well as some troops in central Russia.

In the two-day first stage, military units would be brought to "the highest degree of combat readiness" and would be deployed to testing areas on land and sea.

The second stage would include tactical exercises and involve warships from the Northern and Baltic Fleets, he said, and some warplanes would move to combat airfields.

No mention was made of the Black Sea Fleet, which is based in Sevastopol in Crimea, where tension over Ukraine's turmoil is high because of its presence and a large Russian-speaking population.

Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill
 
I'm getting the impression that the US are not liking Merkel's involvement with Klitschko/UDAR, at least it's this article from several days ago that suggests it may be the case. The US diplomat and ambassador to Ukraine are seriously considering the idea of allowing Tyagnybok anywhere near the government, which I think is not particularly surprising and doesn't suggest that they care about what a fascist with significant influence could bring.

I don't remember where I read it but I do remember reading that Ukraine needs $35 billion to keep itself afloat over the next 2 years or something along the lines of that.

In the end, more than the fair fight of ukrainians for democracy, this is a war of blocks and of world influence between Russia, the UE and the US.

You're right, Vlad. Ukraine is in pre-bankrupcy. In fact, it already was. This year, 2014, Ukraine has to pay €13 billion (in "european" we'd say "€13 000 milions"). Russia was supposed to "lend" €15 billion this year, to "ensure" the payments. Standard & Poors have already explained that, without this russian capital injection, the economic collapse is guaranteed. Specially because of all this situation, obviously, now Russia is hesitating in giving that money.
On the other hand, the US - and the EU - (disguised in the IFM clothes) has already stated, as I said, that they have a bailout ready if Ukraine requires it... But, Olli Rehn and Christine Lagarde have already explained that Ukraine will only see these fresh dollars if the country commits to introduce "structural economic reforms" [Olli Rehn/Merkel to the PIIGS, anyone?]. Plus, the US Departement has already asked for Ukraine to get a "technocratic government of national unity" (like Monti in Italy, like Papademos in Greece, like this 3-party-"consensus" in Portugal... like the "national unities" in South America in the 1960/70's...). With the strategic importance of Ukraine and with what's been done to other countries in similar situations in the past, the only possible translation is: "give us your actives and we'll keep you connected to the credit machine.
As a portuguese journalist described, Ukraine is just leaving jail to enter into an equualy tough and tight probation.

Chris Floyd made the following analogy (I'm having trouble finding the original in english, so I'm translating back to english from the portuguese translation):
Try to imagine that thousands of supporters of the Tea Party, for example, had declared the elected government of Barack Obama too corrupt and illegitimate to continue, putting up an armed camp in the middle of Washington, occupying for months the Treasury Building and the Justice Department, while meeting with Chinese and Russian leaders, who then began to require that a "transitional government" to establish itself in the White House. What would be the reaction of the government? There is no doubt that it would make Yanukovich's actions look like a catechism picnic.

I'm afraid that, on the other hand, we're not just watching a US/EU/Russia war, not only the fight of ukrainians for the right to a cleaner and more democratic regime, but also to the beginning of a civil war.
It never was a secret that Ukraine was born of fragments of an older Ukraine and pieces of extinct countries and communities. The neonazi and extreme-right movements in Ukraine (and, in a certain way, in other Eastern Europe countries) don't exist or didn't come up from nothing, there's an historical-sociological reason behind it. And Ukraine might be on the verge of a war between an East side of a population with mostly russian speakers, and a Western side where the ukrainian is the predominant language.
In fact, the Svoboda Party (means "Freedom", to hide its opposite real agenda), the extreme-right party had very good electoral results over the past years. The Svoboda history descends from Nazi organizations that collaborated with Hitler's troops, including being integrated in the SS, murdering jews, communists and polish. Then, it changed its name to National Socialist Party, while using a stylization of the swastika. Today it exists as the Svoboda.
The Svoboda, in the last general elections made a parliamentary coalition of opposition with the UDAR (the same Klitschko's party who's been financed by Germany's and Merkel's CDU/CSU) and the Tymoshenko's Party, in order to overthrow the government that existed.
Plus, in the last elections, the Svoboda had brilliant results in the Western side of the country, while, the more you go to the East, it had disastrous results. For instance, in the provinces closer to Russian and in the Crimea Autonomous Region (another headache for Ukraine in terms of territorial cohesion) it had 1-2%. In the center, it had 5-15%. But in the regions closer to Poland, Hungary and the more you go to the west, there are regions where the Svoboda obtained 30, 32 or 38%.
And in these regions where the Svoboda won the elections, the first thing it did was, not only to forbid the russian as second official language, but they also stormed the headquarters of the parties voting in the majority of the Ukrainian population that speaks Russian and banned its activity.

We may be towards a case where civilization is a thin veneer, just like in Yugoslavia. The difference is that, this time, people live in a territory filled with nuclear weapons.
Meanwhile, the US, the EU and Russia are playing to the cold wars with each other.
 
I'm at the point where I wouldn't be surprised if parts of Ukraine, notably Crimea, decided to unlock itself from it, and I say that even though the event of that happening is still pretty low. I'm a bit confused as to why the Crimean Tatar community would support the new Ukrainian government since given the noted extremism present around and about, they wouldn't take too kindly to the Tatars.

Again, I'll reiterate that Ukraine's troubles aren't even close to ending, but in many ways given their geographical location they really don't have much of a say with either power at their doorstep.
 
Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?
 
Its now being alleged that Russian troops have invaded the Ukraine in the area of the Crimea. The rumor is that several thousand Russian airborne or "special forces" have landed in the Crimea. Several government buildings have been seized by unknown forces and two airports have been taken by unknown military forces as well.

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7 minutes agoObama on Ukraine: The U.S. is 'deeply concerned'


CNN) - The United States is "deeply concerned" by reports of Russian military movements inside Ukraine, President Barack Obama said Friday, saying any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty would be "deeply destabilizing."
Obama said that the situation in Ukraine was "very fluid" and that the United States would continue to coordinate closely with European allies and communicate directly with the Russian government.

"The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine," he said.

Obama on Ukraine: The U.S. is ‘deeply concerned’ – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
 
Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?

Unlikely. Carving up recognized independent UN states is usually a bad idea. Ethnic Ukrainians make up 25% of the Crimea's population and ethnic Tarters make up another 10%.
 
CNN is showing footage of Russian helicopters flying over the Crimea. Oh boy...

It's been over 20 years since the end of the Cold War. Looks like its starting up again, or it never really went away.
 
Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?

To a degree it would be, but from what I understand eastern Ukraine is relatively heavily populated compared to the west and is the more 'industrial' part of the country, if it were to become independent of Ukraine or join Russia (still unlikely at this stage) the remainder of Ukraine would probably struggle on its own.

Crimea deserting Ukraine may not be such a bad thing since about 70% of those living there are not/don't see themselves as Ukrainian. Either way, the result afterwards can be hard to predict if it happens as having a Russian territory of 2 million to your south would be pretty daunting if you were a big shot in the Ukrainian government.
 
Looks like Russia is pulling the same crap they did in Georgia in 2008 when they invaded the country and then claimed that South Osetia and Abakazia were independent states instead of being part of Georgia. Russia is the only country that recognizes these places as independent states.

Simply because 30%, 50% or 70% of a population of a region are ethnically the same as a neighboring country, that NEVER ever justifies an invasion. Crimea is apart of the Ukraine and is recognized as being such by the United Nations and treaty agreements signed in 1994 by Russia, Ukraine, and the United States.
 
It is surprising that there has yet to be any fighting yet with Russian troops being deployed in different areas of the Crimea. One reason may be that most Ukrainian forces are based in areas that are west of the Dnieper River and a good distance from the Crimea. Ukraine's navy which is very small is based in the Crimea, but there are no major ground forces of the Ukrainian army that are stationed in the Crimea which may explain why the situation although alarming has remained relatively calm.
 
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.
 
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.

There's going to be a referendum at the end of this month re: Crimea from what I believe.

If you're going to strip a country of a sporting event due to abuses of human rights you may as well cancel the Olympics/World Cup for good. :lol:
 
Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

KIEV/BALACLAVA, Ukraine (Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized on Sunday for war and called up its reserves, after Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to invade in the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.
Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced. The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct the call-up, potentially of all men up to 40 in a country that still has universal male conscription.

Russian forces who have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where most of the population are ethnic Russian and Moscow has a naval base - tried to disarm the small Ukrainian contingents there on Sunday. Some Ukrainian commanders refused to give up weapons and bases were surrounded.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, leading a pro-European government that took power after Moscow ally Viktor Yanukovich fled a week ago, said Russian armed action "would be the beginning of war and the end of any relations between Ukraine and Russia".

Russian news agencies reported that Moscow's troops had disarmed Ukrainians at several small bases.
Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television he had refused to surrender.
"A truck with troops of the Russian Federation, armed with rifles, helmets and bullet-proof vests arrived at our checkpoint and suggested we give up our weapons and accept the protection of the armed forces of the Russian Federation," he said.
"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.
"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."
Ukrainian marines were barricaded into a base in Feodosia, a Crimean port. Russia appealed for them to back the "legitimate" - pro-Russian - regional leadership.
Their commander, Dmytro Delyatytskiy, told Ukraine's Channel 5 by telephone Russian troops had demanded they give up their weapons by 10 a.m. and they refused.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."

. Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves
 
Launching and unprovoked invasion of another country is far more than just bullying. I have yet to see any justification for what Russia has done over the past few days. There is no evidence that even a single ethnic Russian in Crimea has been attacked based on their ethnicity or language. At the same time, Russian military forces have fired shots at Ukrainian troops and ordered them to give up their weapons. On what grounds do Russian soldiers have the right to tell Ukrainian troops on their own territory, in their own military bases, to surrender? It is incredible the amount of restraint that Ukraine has shown. Its clear that Putin was hoping that there would be clashes in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine in order to give him a stronger pre-text to send in even more troops and the first troops into eastern Ukraine, but that has not happened. Russian troops must withdraw immediately! Ukraine is an independent state and has its own military and police force that can handle any alleged human rights violations should they occur.

Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.
 
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.

The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.
 
The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.

Guess what, Ukraine has history prior to it being gradually annexed into the Russian Empire. The Crimea was always part of the Ukraine. It was only part of Russian Federation from 1920 to 1954. For the overwhelming portion of Ukraine's history, Crimea has been apart of the Ukraine. In fact, Russia did not have any control of the Crimea until 1783. In 1783, 95% of the Crimea was ethnic Tarters as was much of southern Ukraine. Over the next century and a half, the Tarters were removed from Crimea and replaced with Russians. Ethnic cleansing indeed.

What happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a disaster.

In other news today, Hillary Clinton has compared Putin to Adolf Hitler!
 
Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.

So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?
 
So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?

Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.

I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.

This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.

Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.
 
Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he wants to replicate/return to the Soviet Union, but agreed that he/they think they gave way too much up (power, prestige, territory) and will try and claw some back wherever possible. There are semi-legit strategic motives (they genuinely see the EU and NATO as a threat – you could disagree or think they’re paranoid, but pushing back on both whenever they can they feel is a legit, important thing to do for their own security) and purely political motives, i.e. regaining territory and influence, especially while giving the EU/NATO/US a bloody nose, obviously strengthens Putin. There are also – as there always are – a number of other things going on that surely are all now (back) on the negotiating table. Syria, Iran etc. Who is in more of a position of strength at the negotiating table right now? I’d say it’s definitely Russia.

I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.

My mistake, I did mean to write ‘lower’ gas prices, not raise. Regardless, I would think that deflating Russia’s economy and thus Putin would only lead him to push further in ways like this to maintain his standing and power. I think he’d play it fairly easily (for the home audience) and send Russia more insular, more unpredictable, more aggressive. Economically weakening Russia is a response, but not a solution.

This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.

It seems all the world leaders are clamouring to condemn and suggest hard economic punishment… as long as it doesn’t include X… because we make good money from that… but everyone else should sanction everything else!

Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.

So what if a Crimean referendum is held – and declared by all independent (EU, US, UN) inspectors to be free and fair – and it comes in at, say, 80% in favour of joining Russia? Hard to ignore. Tie it with further guarantees on remaining Ukrainian territorial sovereignty (traded off against how and when or to what level Ukraine could or couldn’t ever fully join up with NATO) and protections for minorities (which don’t really mean anything – and probably traded with bullshit protections for Russians in Ukraine that look to legitimise Putin’s logic from the start) with some further background trade-offs that favour the US in Syria and Iran… It’s ugly and you could call it ‘appeasement’ and draw comparisons there, but there’s not much that could be done about it. EU/US/IMF have their man in Kiev now – they’ll get to destroy a generation of the rest of the Ukrainians in their own special way.

Having said all that, this is just Crimea – any excursion into Eastern Ukraine proper and I’d say all bets are off.
 
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