"I Am A Ukrainian"

[Vlad n U 2]

Svoboda fascists occupying the Kiev city hall, large banner of their fascist 'hero' at the entrance.



Very concerned for what may happen to minorities in the future.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Svoboda fascists occupying the Kiev city hall, large banner of their fascist 'hero' at the entrance.



Very concerned for what may happen to minorities in the future.

There are also recent photos of the past few days of city halls occupied and with Hitler's banners at the entrance too.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Really? What is your evidence against her?



Yes of course. Who was she arrested by? A Lenin/Putin stooge named viktor yanukovych. She was then nearly beaten to death while she was in prison! Sorry, but she will likely be the next President of Ukraine, elected by popular vote this May! Ukraine will be apart of the European Union eventually and will likely join NATO as well. Sorry Russia, but the Soviet Union and Russian Empire is DEAD!

Was she arrested by the opposition? Yes. Was she badly treated? Yes. Is she a saint? No.
Go read about who Tymoshenko is, about her past, about the press she had in the same Western media a few years ago, compare it, and then you write whatever you want.

Wait until Ukrania joins the EU (it won't be long until it's going to collapse too... shhhhh, don't tell anyone). I'm going to laugh loud when ukrainians wages are still low (while they dream to be "brothers" of the neighbours in Germany), when they'll have successive bailouts in the name of democratization while their ressources are sucked, when the usual brainwash against western european left is made which'll lead 'em to elect right and extreme-right governments and deputees, etc.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Yanukovych is a stooge of a guy who died 90 years ago and had a vastly different ideology to him? I don't know, man. The only way in which Lenin may at all have any relevance in this is as a symbol of Russian imperialism (ie. tearing down his statues, of course, from what I've heard it's been the Svoboda blokes going at it), but otherwise he had no effect or say in Yanukovych becoming president. A pretty surprising post from you, Steve Bono.

First, stop calling the people of Ukraine who desire true independence from Russia and its past as well as closer ties with the west, Fascist or Nazi's. That's an old tactic by Communist all across Eastern Europe as they lost power after the Soviet Union's defeat in the Cold War 23 years ago. I remember the Soviet military trying to persuade people in Poland in 1990 to let the Soviet military stay there so they could protect them from Fascism. Its absurd!
The People of Ukraine who are tearing down statues of Lenin all across Ukraine certainly think the comparison is relevant. Both Lenin and Yanukovych believe in the power of the state to repress the people and enrich themselves. Both are elitist who think they are above the people and have no problem using violence, murder, and torture in order to get what they want. They are both representative of evil, anti-democractic and against human rights. Yanukovych had his Police sniping and killing protesters, sniping and killing medics as they tried to save the lives of people who were shot. Yanukovych tried to get the military to crack down, and when he was unable to get their support, he ran. Yanukovych is a dictator just like Lenin. Yes, they may have some differences, but so do most dictators.

Human Rights will be far better in a Ukraine that is free and independent of Russian influence and allowed to do as it pleases with the West and other countries of the world. Yanukovych had his thugs nearly beat Yulia to death while she was imprisoned in Kharkiv. Why would you defend someone like that? Minorities will have it far better under a government that respects democracy and human rights. Yanukovych views democracy and human rights as things that he needs to limit and work around in order to get his way.
Sure, there are people with extremist ideas everywhere. But the idea that minorities would be safer under Yanukovych rather than Yulia is not true at all.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Aygo

Was she arrested by the opposition? Yes. Was she badly treated? Yes. Is she a saint? No.
Go read about who Tymoshenko is, about her past, about the press she had in the same Western media a few years ago, compare it, and then you write whatever you want.

Wait until Ukrania joins the EU (it won't be long until it's going to collapse too... shhhhh, don't tell anyone). I'm going to laugh loud when ukrainians wages are still low (while they dream to be "brothers" of the neighbours in Germany), when they'll have successive bailouts in the name of democratization while their ressources are sucked, when the usual brainwash against western european left is made which'll lead 'em to elect right and extreme-right governments and deputees, etc.

Well, that's certainly what Putin wants Ukrainians to believe. Join me, or collapse and die on your own or with the West. Well, that was said about a lot of other East European countries as they moved towards the West and away from Moscow over the past 25 years. The result is that some of these countries are now apart of the first world or close to it. The Ukrainians are not going to be scared away from joining the West by fears of fascism and economic collapse.

[dazzledbylight]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Svoboda fascists occupying the Kiev city hall, large banner of their fascist 'hero' at the entrance.

Very concerned for what may happen to minorities in the future.

Uh, this is not a good thing.

I can remember during the seige of Sarijevo how bad i felt for a city where at least a good portion of the time various ethnic & religious groups could live togther in realtive harmony.

As one who lives in one of the most heterogenious (mixed) cities on the planet - nyc.... this is fearful stuff.

Originally Posted by Aygo

There are also recent photos of the past few days of city halls occupied and with Hitler's banners at the entrance too.

So fucking brazen!

I read the RT comments on the article Vlad linked to. Very disturbing at the vitriol against one group or another.

I'm not always all peace & light ... i admit.......but to bloodbath a whole group of people of one sort or another *shudders*


I've heard here and there about neo-nazi groups in Europe for decades but not knowing their names.
And here in the USA we very sadly have them, too.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Well, that's certainly what Putin wants Ukrainians to believe. Join me, or collapse and die on your own or with the West. Well, that was said about a lot of other East European countries as they moved towards the West and away from Moscow over the past 25 years. The result is that some of these countries are now apart of the first world or close to it. The Ukrainians are not going to be scared away from joining the West by fears of fascism and economic collapse.

Stop calling communists, Putin-pleasers to those who do not agree with the theory sold by the US and Western European press that some are saints and others are devils. I assume, by your speech, that you're not ukrainian, but I'd put my bets that you're from a Eastern European country and one of those that were completely brainwashed by the european techno-bureaucrats (which are not, because they're politicians) and probably wouldn't mind voting for any of the far-right/extreme-right eastern europe parties. I can even wonder what are your thoughts about immigrants, gypsies, jews, etc etc etc.
You mentioned Poland... You mean the most zealous hiper-Catholic country dominated by the church that has 95% of its parliament filled with conservatives, populists, justicialist, catholic-devoted, far-right parties, with very appealing names from the marketing point of view?

No wonder. We can go to Hungary, Ukrania, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, all the Eastern Europe countries, and their parliaments are filled with parties like these with beautiful-demagogic-random-empty names that could be something like "Civic Choice", "Democratic Platform", "People's Movement for the Reform of x country", "We Are For x country", "Positive x country" and voids like those.

Unlike what you - and the real extremists that uncritically follow the (also dark) EU agenda - try to imply, no one denies that Ukraine will be much better, at least in terms of respect for civil rights, out of Russia's dome. But you don't have the right to adopt a black/white speech that puts the skeptics of the Western's intentions as devils, supporters of dictatorial and oppressive regimes.

And no, I don't buy the canonization of Yulia Tymoshenko - based on what I know about her background (and what I remember of her political speech) made by the Western press. We're talking about the same Western that, for instance, never questioned the lack of legitimacy of the leaders and the regimes of Arabian/Northern Africa... Until they were put in evidence but its own people (just like in Ukraine now).
Until the moment that people questioned the need of an agreement with the EU, the EU didn't care if Ukraine was democratic of not, just like it doesn't with other countries (including member-states) and just like it won't in the future.
By joining the EU, Ukrainians are just switching one sort of oppressive totalitarianism by another form of fascist dictatorship. They'll soon learn it, don't worry. The EU/USA have already stated that they have ready a bailout for Ukraine ("troika" is blinking the eye, like it did for Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, etc.).

And the most funny thing is that not only UDAR and Vitaly Klitschko has been financed and supported by Germany's (and Merkel's) CDU/CSU (as well as the FDP)... And now Merkel claimed that she urged and notified(!) Tymoshenko by phone for this one to head the unity process of Ukraine... Which means that she and Klitschko must do what Merkel and Germany's finance say if they keep on being "$timulated to work towards Ukraine's unity".

The anti-immigration movements and parties are growing all over Europe, and they'll have historic results in the next elections. I will enjoy (not) assisting to the protests against the immigration of ukrainians to the other european countries, at the same time that these countries export their products and install their factories there because it'll be cheap to produce in Ukraine for many years.

Welcome to the "western democracy", the democracy of the "free market economy", Ukraine.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by dazzledbylight

I can remember during the seige of Sarijevo how bad i felt for a city where at least a good portion of the time various ethnic & religious groups could live togther in realtive harmony.

And the situation in the ex-Yugoslavia is not solved either, that region is a powder keg. Any intelectually honest economist knows that the crisis that started in the end of the last decade, not only is not over, as it's normal cycle will bring and even bigger flood (most newspapers of economics and finance have already talked about this).
When it comes, Europe is going to be even more vulnerable that it was in 2008 and then, I can bet that the tensions will be back.
Not only today's geopolitical map of the ex-Yugoslavia is consensual as the social "armistice" is. Not to mention the neighbour countries. I always remind of Hungary, leaded by a far-right government, whose Prime-Minister has in it's official cars' number plate the map of The Greater Hungary, the 1920's map, which includes part of today's Croatia, Romania, Slovakia... or Ukraine. This is a mere example. I suggest reading about the ethnic/lingustic/national minorities in countries of the ex-Yugoslavia, the ex-Austro-Hungarian Empire (it's not that far in History...) and the whole balcains.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Aygo

Was she arrested by the opposition? Yes. Was she badly treated? Yes. Is she a saint? No.
Go read about who Tymoshenko is, about her past, about the press she had in the same Western media a few years ago, compare it, and then you write whatever you want.

Wait until Ukrania joins the EU (it won't be long until it's going to collapse too... shhhhh, don't tell anyone). I'm going to laugh loud when ukrainians wages are still low (while they dream to be "brothers" of the neighbours in Germany), when they'll have successive bailouts in the name of democratization while their ressources are sucked, when the usual brainwash against western european left is made which'll lead 'em to elect right and extreme-right governments and deputees, etc.

Tymoshenko isn't exactly that unanimously revered in Ukraine too, even former partner-in-crime Yushchenko said that 'the most serious mistake was to give the power to her twice.'

I'm honestly a bit concerned about the rose coloured glasses many seem to have towards the EU, why not just ask an ordinary worker in Greece how it's like?

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

First, stop calling the people of Ukraine who desire true independence from Russia and its past as well as closer ties with the west, Fascist or Nazi's.

I never said all the people of Ukraine are fascists. I said that a significant part of the opposition movement are fascists, and that this shouldn't be ignored. At the very best the opposition movement is of a centre-right nature.

That's an old tactic by Communist all across Eastern Europe as they lost power after the Soviet Union's defeat in the Cold War 23 years ago. I remember the Soviet military trying to persuade people in Poland in 1990 to let the Soviet military stay there so they could protect them from Fascism. Its absurd!

This isn't particularly relevant to anything, all I did was suggest that fascists are prominent in this opposition movement and that their threat to minorities and ordinary Ukrainians alike is very real.

The People of Ukraine who are tearing down statues of Lenin all across Ukraine certainly think the comparison is relevant. Both Lenin and Yanukovych believe in the power of the state to repress the people and enrich themselves.

Lenin believed in a stateless, classless society and the abolishment of capitalism (which as history showed did not eventuate at that time). He was hardly wealthy, either. You can do much better than this.

Both are elitist who think they are above the people

Lenin never thought he was above the people, jesus Christ.

Obviously, I'm not going to change your mind about Lenin so I'll leave it at that.

Human Rights will be far better in a Ukraine that is free and independent of Russian influence and allowed to do as it pleases with the West and other countries of the world. Yanukovych had his thugs nearly beat Yulia to death while she was imprisoned in Kharkiv. Why would you defend someone like that? Minorities will have it far better under a government that respects democracy and human rights. Yanukovych views democracy and human rights as things that he needs to limit and work around in order to get his way.

It's ridiculous to suggest that by moving to the west, Ukrainian problems will disintegrate and everything will be sunshine and lollipops. Not to mention saying that Ukraine will have that much more independence in the west is quite naive, and can you imagine if in the future Ukraine elects another leader who isn't that kind to the west? And why do you seem to keep implying that I'm a supporter of Yanukovych? I don't disagree with your account of him, but none of his actions are unique to him. As a communist, I have no horse to support in this race.

Sure, there are people with extremist ideas everywhere. But the idea that minorities would be safer under Yanukovych rather than Yulia is not true at all

I didn't say anything about the safety of minorities under Tymoshenko, if she ever came back to power I don't think there'd be a vast difference between then and now. My concern for minorities is derived from the strength of the Svoboda party and what would happen if Tyahnybok found himself on the throne.

Originally Posted by Aygo

Stop calling communists, Putin-pleasers to those who do not agree with the theory sold by the US and Western European press that some are saints and others are devils. I assume, by your speech, that you're not ukrainian, but I'd put my bets that you're from a Eastern European country and one of those that were completely brainwashed by the european techno-bureaucrats (which are not, because they're politicians) and probably wouldn't mind voting for any of the far-right/extreme-right eastern europe parties. I can even wonder what are your thoughts about immigrants, gypsies, jews, etc etc etc.
You mentioned Poland... You mean the most zealous hiper-Catholic country dominated by the church that has 95% of its parliament filled with conservatives, populists, justicialist, catholic-devoted, far-right parties, with very appealing names from the marketing point of view?

No wonder. We can go to Hungary, Ukrania, Czech Republic, Poland, Slovakia, all the Eastern Europe countries, and their parliaments are filled with parties like these with beautiful-demagogic-random-empty names that could be something like "Civic Choice", "Democratic Platform", "People's Movement for the Reform of x country", "We Are For x country", "Positive x country" and voids like those.

Unlike what you - and the real extremists that uncritically follow the (also dark) EU agenda - try to imply, no one denies that Ukraine will be much better, at least in terms of respect for civil rights, out of Russia's dome. But you don't have the right to adopt a black/white speech that puts the skeptics of the Western's intentions as devils, supporters of dictatorial and oppressive regimes.

And no, I don't buy the canonization of Yulia Tymoshenko - based on what I know about her background (and what I remember of her political speech) made by the Western press. We're talking about the same Western that, for instance, never questioned the lack of legitimacy of the leaders and the regimes of Arabian/Northern Africa... Until they were put in evidence but its own people (just like in Ukraine now).
Until the moment that people questioned the need of an agreement with the EU, the EU didn't care if Ukraine was democratic of not, just like it doesn't with other countries (including member-states) and just like it won't in the future.
By joining the EU, Ukrainians are just switching one sort of oppressive totalitarianism by another form of fascist dictatorship. They'll soon learn it, don't worry. The EU/USA have already stated that they have ready a bailout for Ukraine ("troika" is blinking the eye, like it did for Latvia, Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, etc.).

And the most funny thing is that not only UDAR and Vitaly Klitschko has been financed and supported by Germany's (and Merkel's) CDU/CSU (as well as the FDP)... And now Merkel claimed that she urged and notified(!) Tymoshenko by phone for this one to head the unity process of Ukraine... Which means that she and Klitschko must do what Merkel and Germany's finance say if they keep on being "$timulated to work towards Ukraine's unity".

The anti-immigration movements and parties are growing all over Europe, and they'll have historic results in the next elections. I will enjoy (not) assisting to the protests against the immigration of ukrainians to the other european countries, at the same time that these countries export their products and install their factories there because it'll be cheap to produce in Ukraine for many years.

Welcome to the "western democracy", the democracy of the "free market economy", Ukraine.

Generally agree with this , although I'm not the biggest fan of sticking 'fascist' labels so liberally especially when there are several instances of openly fascist parties gaining influence throughout Europe.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Aygo

And the situation in the ex-Yugoslavia is not solved either, that region is a powder keg. Any intelectually honest economist knows that the crisis that started in the end of the last decade, not only is not over, as it's normal cycle will bring and even bigger flood (most newspapers of economics and finance have already talked about this).
When it comes, Europe is going to be even more vulnerable that it was in 2008 and then, I can bet that the tensions will be back.
Not only today's geopolitical map of the ex-Yugoslavia is consensual as the social "armistice" is. Not to mention the neighbour countries. I always remind of Hungary, leaded by a far-right government, whose Prime-Minister has in it's official cars' number plate the map of The Greater Hungary, the 1920's map, which includes part of today's Croatia, Romania, Slovakia... or Ukraine. This is a mere example. I suggest reading about the ethnic/lingustic/national minorities in countries of the ex-Yugoslavia, the ex-Austro-Hungarian Empire (it's not that far in History...) and the whole balcains.

There was the worker riots/protests in Bosnia (didn't the EU actually threaten to send troops?) a few weeks ago where nationalism was rallied against and some buildings were trashed, unfortunately I haven't heard too much about it in the past week but even Euromaidan had a lull after its first wave.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Tymoshenko isn't exactly that unanimously revered in Ukraine too, even former partner-in-crime Yushchenko said that 'the most serious mistake was to give the power to her twice.'

Yep, that's definitely the feeling in Kiev! She was just freed from prison and had her convictions rescinded by the parliament. She could be President of the country in three months. Sure, there are people in Ukraine who don't like her. People who worship Lenin and want the Soviet Union reformed.

I'm honestly a bit concerned about the rose coloured glasses many seem to have towards the EU, why not just ask an ordinary worker in Greece how it's like?

Yet, on average, most people in Greece have a standard of living superior to that of most people on the planet. The same could be said for much of Europe and the EU as well.

I never said all the people of Ukraine are fascists. I said that a significant part of the opposition movement are fascists, and that this shouldn't be ignored. At the very best the opposition movement is of a centre-right nature.
This isn't particularly relevant to anything, all I did was suggest that fascists are prominent in this opposition movement and that their threat to minorities and ordinary Ukrainians alike is very real.

Again, labeling people as fascists is what communist have often done over the past 25 years as their governments and ideas were toppled all over the world. The movement in Ukraine is not about fascism, but about freedom and independence from Russia and move towards the West. You primarily hear these charges of fascism from Russians. In the rest of the world, it not taken seriously. Certainly fascist and extremist exist as they do everywhere, but its not what the movement is about, or what the people in the streets are fighting for. The people are not fighting and dying for fascism.

Lenin believed in a stateless, classless society and the abolishment of capitalism (which as history showed did not eventuate at that time). He was hardly wealthy, either. You can do much better than this.
Lenin never thought he was above the people, jesus Christ.

Lenin was a mass murderer responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the former Soviet Union as well as the creation of the Soviet Union and all the problems this entailed for the world for the next 72 years. Lenin manipulated the people and tried to abolish religion in Russia, destroying churches, murdering priest, and turning other churches into museums. He is guilty of gross human rights abuses and used his power to inflict horrible pain and suffering on the people of Russia and the former Soviet Union. If Satan has ever walked the earth, he may have been Lenin. Oh, and those who led the Bolsheviks did believe they were smarter than most of society and that society needed to be led by THEM. The great irony is that Lenin helped create a new society that was far more evil and repressive than the one it replaced, as well as being a far greater threat to the rest of the world.

It's ridiculous to suggest that by moving to the west, Ukrainian problems will disintegrate and everything will be sunshine and lollipops. Not to mention saying that Ukraine will have that much more independence in the west is quite naive, and can you imagine if in the future Ukraine elects another leader who isn't that kind to the west? And why do you seem to keep implying that I'm a supporter of Yanukovych? I don't disagree with your account of him, but none of his actions are unique to him.

Like there is any comparison to being part of the European Union VS a prisoner of Putins Russia. Trust me, anything the Ukraine does in the future will be better than its past as part of the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire before that, or the past 20 years during which it has been unduly influenced by Russia and those attempting to move things back towards the Soviet era.
Its also better for United States and NATO interest as well.

As a communist, I have no horse to support in this race.

Good! I'm confident you'll never have a horse to support in any future race in Ukraine, ever.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Yep, that's definitely the feeling in Kiev! She was just freed from prison and had her convictions rescinded by the parliament. She could be President of the country in three months. Sure, there are people in Ukraine who don't like her. People who worship Lenin and want the Soviet Union reformed.

It might have something to do with the discontent towards her when she had some sort of power, maybe, no? Of course not, it's always those pesky Lenin lovers!

Yet, on average, most people in Greece have a standard of living superior to that of most people on the planet. The same could be said for much of Europe and the EU as well.

Ask the workers if they're happy with their 'standard of living' right now, I'm sure they're all thinking 'well we don't have it great but we should be thankful we're in the EU so we shouldn't complain too much.'

Again, labeling people as fascists is what communist have often done over the past 25 years as their governments and ideas were toppled all over the world. The movement in Ukraine is not about fascism, but about freedom and independence from Russia and move towards the West. You primarily hear these charges of fascism from Russians. In the rest of the world, it not taken seriously. Certainly fascist and extremist exist as they do everywhere, but its not what the movement is about, or what the people in the streets are fighting for. The people are not fighting and dying for fascism.

What am I supposed to label Svoboda if they're not fascists? You keep on twisting things, because I've never stated that every single Ukrainian protestor is a fascist but that the fascist threat is a very real problem within the opposition.

Lenin was a mass murderer responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the former Soviet Union as well as the creation of the Soviet Union and all the problems this entailed for the world for the next 72 years. Lenin manipulated the people and tried to abolish religion in Russia, destroying churches, murdering priest, and turning other churches into museums. He is guilty of gross human rights abuses and used his power to inflict horrible pain and suffering on the people of Russia and the former Soviet Union. If Satan has ever walked the earth, he may have been Lenin. Oh, and those who led the Bolsheviks did believe they were smarter than most of society and that society needed to be led by THEM. The great irony is that Lenin helped create a new society that was far more evil and repressive than the one it replaced, as well as being a far greater threat to the rest of the world.

If the civil war (which ran throughout most of his time as leader) only saw 1.5 million dead from the opposing side then where do you get your 'millions' source? And to say that he was responsible for deaths after his passing is ridiculous, although I think the fact that destroying religion is a bigger deal to you than most (even if I don't condone it necessarily) says a lot about your politics (ie. you come off as somewhat religious). And your statement that Imperial Russia, a semi feudal society (where in 1913, 80% of the country was made up of peasants and when other world powers had already reached capitalism), was superior to even the flawed Soviet Union is an insult to the workers who attempted to get rid of the Tsar.

I'll reinforce that I'm not and have never been a supporter of the Soviet Union but your belief that Imperial Russia was in any way a preferable society to it is disgusting, unless of course you're quite wealthy and you could relate to the Tsar's ruling class.

Like there is any comparison to being part of the European Union VS a prisoner of Putins Russia. Trust me, anything the Ukraine does in the future will be better than its past as part of the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire before that, or the past 20 years during which it has been unduly influenced by Russia and those attempting to move things back towards the Soviet era.
Its also better for United States and NATO interest as well.

Who is trying to move back to the Soviet era? Is Putin suddenly calling for a return to a social democracy of sorts? Is he calling for free education and free healthcare? Russian imperialism did not start with the Soviet Union. Whatever happens, whether it's towards the east or the west, I can assure you the conditions for the working class won't experience a vast improvement in living. However, I do concede 'freedom of speech' is definitely likely to be better than it was.

Good! I'm confident you'll never have a horse to support in any future race in Ukraine, ever.

Oh don't you worry, a time will come when workers might realise that it's not going to make a significant difference to them no matter which way they face.

[Axver]

Vlad, I think you're probably just wasting your energy trying to convey a nuanced reading of politics and history to somebody who is stubbornly unwilling to consider it.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Steve_Bono

Yep, that's definitely the feeling in Kiev! She was just freed from prison and had her convictions rescinded by the parliament. She could be President of the country in three months. Sure, there are people in Ukraine who don't like her. People who worship Lenin and want the Soviet Union reformed.




Yet, on average, most people in Greece have a standard of living superior to that of most people on the planet. The same could be said for much of Europe and the EU as well.



Again, labeling people as fascists is what communist have often done over the past 25 years as their governments and ideas were toppled all over the world. The movement in Ukraine is not about fascism, but about freedom and independence from Russia and move towards the West. You primarily hear these charges of fascism from Russians. In the rest of the world, it not taken seriously. Certainly fascist and extremist exist as they do everywhere, but its not what the movement is about, or what the people in the streets are fighting for. The people are not fighting and dying for fascism.




Lenin was a mass murderer responsible for the deaths of millions of people in the former Soviet Union as well as the creation of the Soviet Union and all the problems this entailed for the world for the next 72 years. Lenin manipulated the people and tried to abolish religion in Russia, destroying churches, murdering priest, and turning other churches into museums. He is guilty of gross human rights abuses and used his power to inflict horrible pain and suffering on the people of Russia and the former Soviet Union. If Satan has ever walked the earth, he may have been Lenin. Oh, and those who led the Bolsheviks did believe they were smarter than most of society and that society needed to be led by THEM. The great irony is that Lenin helped create a new society that was far more evil and repressive than the one it replaced, as well as being a far greater threat to the rest of the world.



Like there is any comparison to being part of the European Union VS a prisoner of Putins Russia. Trust me, anything the Ukraine does in the future will be better than its past as part of the Soviet Union, the Russian Empire before that, or the past 20 years during which it has been unduly influenced by Russia and those attempting to move things back towards the Soviet era.
Its also better for United States and NATO interest as well.



Good! I'm confident you'll never have a horse to support in any future race in Ukraine, ever.

You're complaining about the lack of democracy in Ukraine, but your speech is you're against me if you're not on my side. You make a black-or-white speech. Again, I've read you type of speech so many times from some eastern europeans, that I'd swear that you come from one of those countries that were oppressed by the Russian imperialism and now are still radiant with the (yet) recent brave new world of the money that comes from the West to "democratize" the East.
I've got news for you. That tap will get closed someday, and when you've built all your new highways, hospitals, schools, infrastructures, improved social security... That money will be required back, with interests that you'll be never be able to pay. And you know when that'll happen? When the investor of those countries of those goods find out that it's not worthy anymore to produce there because there'll be new "cheap" emergent economy (the "new" North Africa/Middle East is so close... ). And you'll be on your own, sucking on your thumb, preaching against the West the same way you're doing to Russian imperialism now.

One of the missunderstoods I hear the most is the application of fascism, even in the ex-URSS, Eastern Europe countries. Yes, Russian imperialism is totalitarian and oppressive. No, that's not what fascism is, because the peculiarities of these regimes only fit in the characteristics of the fascist italian, french, german (nazi), spanish or portuguese regimes that started before the II WW, or in the South American dictatorships of the second half of the XX century that have similar characteristics to the former. Someone could even say that it's neofascism, but to be neofascism it had to have a rebirth of these characteristics... Like in Portugal today in a covert way (or in Spain where the major PP party assumes that its ideologic descendance from the fraquismo), or in an eventual short way if LePen takes the power in France, for example.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Axver

Vlad, I think you're probably just wasting your energy trying to convey a nuanced reading of politics and history to somebody who is stubbornly unwilling to consider it.

A sound assessment.

[Irvine511]

I can assure you that steve_Bono is very much an American.

[Steve_Bono]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

If the civil war (which ran throughout most of his time as leader) only saw 1.5 million dead from the opposing side then where do you get your 'millions' source? And to say that he was responsible for deaths after his passing is ridiculous, although I think the fact that destroying religion is a bigger deal to you than most (even if I don't condone it necessarily) says a lot about your politics (ie. you come off as somewhat religious). And your statement that Imperial Russia, a semi feudal society (where in 1913, 80% of the country was made up of peasants and when other world powers had already reached capitalism), was superior to even the flawed Soviet Union is an insult to the workers who attempted to get rid of the Tsar.

Ah, but you are forgetting the Red Terror. Casualties on the battle field during the Civil War is one thing in fighting the white forces, but the mass executions of people on Red territory is another. Lenin ordered the executions of tens thousands of Priest. Tens of thousands of people considered to be "enemies of the people". Well over a million people may have been executed simply because they practiced religion, owned land, had a professional job. These tactics would no doubt influence and be repeated by many communist revolutionaries and dictators across the world over the next century, so indeed Lenin is responsible and not just for deaths in the former Soviet Union. The idea that anyone would defend Lenin in any way, especially his persecution of religious people is disgusting. The fact that you dismiss what Lenin did to religion in the Soviet Union is very telling as well. Certainly not something that a Christian rock band like U2 would approve of.

The Russian Empire may have been less economically developed than the Soviet Union, just like most countries were less economically developed than their future would be decades later, but at least the Russian Empire did not attempt to abolish religion and correctly entered on the right side in World War I. The Russian Revolution and abandonment of the fight against the Central Powers nearly led to Central Power victory which would have been terrible for Europe and the world. The Russian Empire had also been reforming itself over the past century. The Russian Empire never attempted to foment violent revolution in every part of the globe and imprison people worldwide under an ideology that abolished all political parties except one and abolished religion and believed in mass murder and mass terror in order to achieve its goals in Russia and foreign countries. Those are the actions of the disgusting Soviet Union which you view as better than Russia. The Soviet Unions actions threatened a World War III and the destruction of all life on earth in the later decades of the 20th century. Russia under the Czar never came close to doing anything like that.

Who is trying to move back to the Soviet era? Is Putin suddenly calling for a return to a social democracy of sorts? Is he calling for free education and free healthcare? Russian imperialism did not start with the Soviet Union.

I said Ukraine will have it better now than they have in the past. To be free of Russian/Soviet influence will be good for Ukraine. Finally the country will be able to develop on its own for the first time in its history.
Yes, I know Russian imperialism did not start with the Soviet Union which is why I also said that life would be better than the Czar time period as well. Oh and the significance of the Soviet era is not "free health care" or "free education". The Soviet era had nothing to do with any sort of democracy either.

Whatever happens, whether it's towards the east or the west, I can assure you the conditions for the working class won't experience a vast improvement in living.

Right, because an improvement would only come with the adoption of Communism. LOL

[Earnie Shavers]

STING Steve, you're completely ignoring most of the actual issue. If you successfully haul all of the country over to the 'EU Side', you still have a huge problem that's not going to magically go away.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Axver

Vlad, I think you're probably just wasting your energy trying to convey a nuanced reading of politics and history to somebody who is stubbornly unwilling to consider it.

Seconded.

I've read a lot on the Russian Revolution, so I'm biting my tongue a great deal here. But time is too precious to waste on the stubborn and poorly informed.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I can assure you that steve_Bono is very much an American.

He does remind me of some Eastern Europeans I've come across online, the sort who seem to have a deep seated hatred of anything Russian and an almost unconditional support of anything Western/EU/NATO. But then after a bit of thought this attitude can also apply to American conservatives and a portion of liberals.