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Old 02-22-2014, 12:55 AM   #21
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We have a shit govt, no doubt, but if you really think violent, week, fortnight, month, year-long violent riots with guns and explosions could happen here you're incredibly deluded.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:26 AM   #22
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90% chance it won't get that far, but again, you never know.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:36 AM   #23
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100%. If it ever happens I'll empty my life savings to the two of you.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:58 AM   #24
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i love the Internetz i can google up stuff you are talking about....
i have some knowledge of what you ae discussing but for instence

i had no idea that currently the "Golden Dawn" is a Greek neo-nazi/fascist/ultra-rightng party! gak! I'm 2nd gen half greek-american. the other half is 2nd gen ukraine-american.

So this thread started i didn't know till i saw it here that there arte neo-nazis involved in this (i went and looked up more stuff on line) and the Svoda party gak to both!

I am one of your more continuing to educate mtself Americans (USA'r)... i have trouble with Putin, AND the uber Corporatists in the usa and all that extreme transnational race-to-the-bottom push on workers.

now i grew up during the cold war - near middle-ish onwards as far as becoming morecogent of the wider world around me. And most people back then couldn't tell a communist from any kind of socialist unless you were embroiled in the factions there in And the nyc area was full of that! So i find myself decdes later being (after listening, reading etc ) I do reject comunism ...not so different from back then but much more knowkedge/experience .
I didn't know there was a range in capitalism... i absolutely reject the laize-faire model. I prefer what i've heard refered to as capitalism-with-a-human-face. Much more regulated <not like it has become> But also have a much higher regard for mixed economies, the nordic-style Democratic Solcialist coutries <still a bit unconfortable w saying that b/c of whence i grew up in but it's true>

Now Pres Franklin D Roosevelt did propse what he called a "second bill of rights" an "economic bill of rights" oing beyond what he ghad already started to put in place....but his death precluded that from going foward.

and you probably hear from time to time how conservartives/right-wing republicans in the usa have been trying to destroy what FDR, later Lyndon Johnson and more expanded on since the get go! what fight we have here!

One thing you don't hear too much about in Obama Care Health Careis that the states are allowed to experiement some with health caare delivery. in Vermont they are allowed to set up their own version of <gasp> single-payer. If it works out it could be the back door for which it'll sprea across the whole usa.that's how it started in Canada with um...one provence.

i'l be looking foward to reading more of your posts ase things continue i hope despite typos i miss < it's very late here > i hope i've been clear.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:15 AM   #25
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Golden Dawn's surge is still a pretty recent thing, all in the past few years, and I'm not sure its rise has been getting as much attention outside of Europe as it should (likewise Svoboda, Hungary's Jobbik etc).
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:49 AM   #26
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We have a shit govt, no doubt, but if you really think violent, week, fortnight, month, year-long violent riots with guns and explosions could happen here you're incredibly deluded.
I haven't suggested such a thing, but developments such as the asylum seeker concentration camps, smug government secrecy at press conferences, and Queensland's bikie laws are certainly enough to make you worried about this country's direction. This is no time to rest on our laurels and think we've created a fair, harmonious, peaceful, and equitable society devoid of serious grievances or authoritarianism.

But this is more a discussion for an Aussie politics thread. Let's get back to Ukraine.
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:50 AM   #27
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Yes, sorry.
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:00 AM   #28
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Though perhaps the reason this thread has veered in multiple non-Ukraine directions in the space of less than thirty posts is because I think most of us look at the current situation and throw up our hands in either ignorance, despair, confusion, or a combination of all three. I sure lack any kind of articulate response.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:25 AM   #29
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Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over

Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Protesters took control of Ukraine's capital on Saturday, seizing the president's office as parliament sought to oust him and form a new government. An aide to President Viktor Yanukovych said he had left Kiev for his support base in the country's Russian-speaking east, but that he has no intention of abandoning power.
In a special parliament session, lawmakers warned that the country risks being split in two. The country's western regions want to be closer to the EU and have rejected Yanukovych's authority in many cities, while eastern Ukraine — which accounts for the bulk of the nation's economic output — favors closer ties with Russia.

Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over



A report outlining the crises and talking to various Ukrainians from two months ago:

Ukraine Rising (Part 1)



Ukraine Rising (Part 2)

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Old 02-22-2014, 10:22 AM   #30
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Though perhaps the reason this thread has veered in multiple non-Ukraine directions in the space of less than thirty posts is because I think most of us look at the current situation and throw up our hands in either ignorance, despair, confusion, or a combination of all three. I sure lack any kind of articulate response.

yes. exactly. i haven't a clue what to say that could possibly be productive.
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Old 02-22-2014, 12:42 PM   #31
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oh yikes
got up a little while ago
and hadn't turned on the news yet!


i only added the other stuff bc being newish to posters in this thread i wanted to give some of my political & personalbackgroud so you would understand my reactions since you don't know my much from FYM since i don't have much time to be here again until now-- work9ing puter & net connect again

i think i would want a more democratic, but also not a neo-liberal out come for the Ukraine,. Not so tied to Russia but not tied to uber laize-faire capitalism either. a mixed of poly-systems.

i wonder if there are ukrainians closer to my stream of thought. but with 2 bagger louder factions maybe hard to hear. must look further on the net
i hope they don't split.......

...but after reading ukie history 3 nights ago parts have beehn grabbed up by countries more west & east in the past!

my emotional/polynties are to nyc/usa and more emotional to Greece bc our family on my moms side is a big greek family while my dads (the ukie) was an only child . Tho we do go with both greek & ukranian traditions at easter time. my dad's dad was a "peasent" in/near outskirts of Kiev....left for here --- late 1800's or early 1900's have to research that.

there are some really upset ukrainians in parts of the 5 borroughs of nyc right. A few places i know of. ...i guess either "side" and i suppose people like me. wow
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:34 PM   #32
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Yulia Tymoshenko, the former Prime Minister that was put in prison 3 years ago allegedly for political reasons has been freed from prison in Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine. She then flew to Kiev and recently spoke to the demonstrators in the streets of Kiev.

"Heroes never die," former Ukraine Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko told hundreds of supporters Saturday night in Kiev shortly after being released from a prison hospital.
The opposition leader was talking about those who were killed in recent days in the capital's Independence Square.
As the crowd shouted her name, Tymoshenko called on their killers to be brought to justice.

"It is very nice to be able to feel the fresh air and to see people," she said in a statement upon her release from a hospital in the prison. "I hope our whole country would be able to see the sun from today. Because the best sons of our country lost their lives, those who covered bullets with their bodies, they have given up everything, so that now we all, each of us can be happy.
"Now we have one task -- to make sure that each drop of the blood won't be dropped in vain, that each drop of the blood won't be forgotten."
Her release prison came as Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych insisted in an interview aired on Ukrainian TV Saturday that he was not resigning and not leaving the country and would work to prevent further division within the country.
He spoke in Kharkiv, a pro-Russian stronghold, as the nation's parliament voted unanimously to remove him from office and to hold new elections on May 25.

Ukrainian opposition figure released from prison - CNN.com


Statues of Lenin have been torn down all across Ukraine over the past week. Perhaps true independence from Russian influence is on the horizon for Ukraine. Indeed it is a set back for Putins attempts to re-establish control over former Soviet Republics. Ukraine was controlled by the Russian Empire from 1667 to 1918 and then the Soviet Union from 1918 to 1991. Since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine has struggled to find its own way as Russia has tried to exert its influence to keep it closer to Russia than the West. Today, 77% of Ukraine's population is ethnic Ukrainian and only 17% ethnic Russian. The Ukrainian language has made a strong comeback over the past decades after Russian/Soviet Authorities attempted to stamp it out. 67% of Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first/native language. Only 24% speak Russian as their first/native language. Ukraine today has the 30th largest population in the world with 45 million people and the 40th largest economy in the world with an estimated GDP adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity of 332 Billion in 2012.
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:24 PM   #33
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Viktor Yanukovych needed to get his butt kicked out of office. The example in this article is one of many reasons:
Shocking opulence revealed as Ukraine leader flees home
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:23 PM   #34
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:09 PM   #35
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Ukrainian rabbi's now urging Kiev's Jewish population to leave the city/country.

*Advertisement

Yes, yes, this is an RT article so take it with all the credibility you want, but the quotes speak for themselves.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/

Getting even more serious now.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:18 PM   #36
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Ukraine Protesters Topple Lenin Statues





In other news, while Yanukovych hides in Kharkiv which is only 20 miles from the Russian border, his support base crumbled even further as the Mayor and regional governor of Kharkiv fled across the border into Russia.

Ukraine's defense and military officials also called for Ukrainians to stay peaceful. In statements Saturday, both the Defense Ministry and the chief of the armed forces said they will not be drawn into any conflict and will side with the people. But they did not specify whether they still support the president or are with the opposition.
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:20 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Yulia Tymoshenko, the former Prime Minister that was put in prison 3 years ago allegedly for political reasons has been freed from prison in Kharkiv in eastern Ukraine. She then flew to Kiev and recently spoke to the demonstrators in the streets of Kiev.

"Heroes never die," former Ukraine Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko told hundreds of supporters Saturday night in Kiev shortly after being released from a prison hospital.
The opposition leader was talking about those who were killed in recent days in the capital's Independence Square.
As the crowd shouted her name, Tymoshenko called on their killers to be brought to justice.

"It is very nice to be able to feel the fresh air and to see people," she said in a statement upon her release from a hospital in the prison. "I hope our whole country would be able to see the sun from today. Because the best sons of our country lost their lives, those who covered bullets with their bodies, they have given up everything, so that now we all, each of us can be happy.
"Now we have one task -- to make sure that each drop of the blood won't be dropped in vain, that each drop of the blood won't be forgotten."
Her release prison came as Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych insisted in an interview aired on Ukrainian TV Saturday that he was not resigning and not leaving the country and would work to prevent further division within the country.
He spoke in Kharkiv, a pro-Russian stronghold, as the nation's parliament voted unanimously to remove him from office and to hold new elections on May 25.

Ukrainian opposition figure released from prison - CNN.com


Statues of Lenin have been torn down all across Ukraine over the past week. Perhaps true independence from Russian influence is on the horizon for Ukraine. Indeed it is a set back for Putins attempts to re-establish control over former Soviet Republics. Ukraine was controlled by the Russian Empire from 1667 to 1918 and then the Soviet Union from 1918 to 1991. Since independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine has struggled to find its own way as Russia has tried to exert its influence to keep it closer to Russia than the West. Today, 77% of Ukraine's population is ethnic Ukrainian and only 17% ethnic Russian. The Ukrainian language has made a strong comeback over the past decades after Russian/Soviet Authorities attempted to stamp it out. 67% of Ukrainians speak Ukrainian as their first/native language. Only 24% speak Russian as their first/native language. Ukraine today has the 30th largest population in the world with 45 million people and the 40th largest economy in the world with an estimated GDP adjusted for Purchasing Power Parity of 332 Billion in 2012.
Yulia Tymoshenko is not the saint that the Western press and the USA now want to make believe. I remind that she was arrested for corruption, power abuse, financial crimes, and I also remember that she rules part of the strong ukrainian oligarchy.
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Old 02-22-2014, 11:27 PM   #38
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Golden Dawn's surge is still a pretty recent thing, all in the past few years, and I'm not sure its rise has been getting as much attention outside of Europe as it should (likewise Svoboda, Hungary's Jobbik etc).
Golden Dawn may be recent as a party, but already existed as an organized structure. Plus, part of the less radical Golden Dawn's agenda was already fulfilled by the LAOS party, that was "exterminated" in the 2012 elections.
These extreme-right and neonazi phenomenons and parties are not that recent, I think, but only recently they've been gaining power, with the ruin of the traditional conservative right and the social-democracy that is disfigured.
The VVD is the Nederlands has been around for almost a decade. The same for the extreme-right in Austria or in some scandinavian countries. France's Front National almost won elections in the 1980's and 1990's... And is probably going to win the Europeans in May.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:02 AM   #39
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Yulia Tymoshenko is not the saint that the Western press and the USA now want to make believe. .
Really? What is your evidence against her?

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I remind that she was arrested for corruption, power abuse, financial crimes, and I also remember that she rules part of the strong ukrainian oligarchy
Yes of course. Who was she arrested by? A Lenin/Putin stooge named viktor yanukovych. She was then nearly beaten to death while she was in prison! Sorry, but she will likely be the next President of Ukraine, elected by popular vote this May! Ukraine will be apart of the European Union eventually and will likely join NATO as well. Sorry Russia, but the Soviet Union and Russian Empire is DEAD!
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:21 AM   #40
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Yanukovych is a stooge of a guy who died 90 years ago and had a vastly different ideology to him? I don't know, man. The only way in which Lenin may at all have any relevance in this is as a symbol of Russian imperialism (ie. tearing down his statues, of course, from what I've heard it's been the Svoboda blokes going at it), but otherwise he had no effect or say in Yanukovych becoming president. A pretty surprising post from you, Steve Bono.
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