GOP Nominee 2012 - Pt. 5

[Moonlit_Angel]

I was going to say, many Americans are lucky if they can find their own state on a map, let alone any other country.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

what's a New Zealand?

A strange mythical land of savages with healthcare.

[cobl04]

Originally Posted by financeguy

So female politicians are just eye candy? Wow. I thought we had moved on from that as a society.

Well I couldn't understand a word she said. She is definitely hot though.

[elevated_u2_fan]

Wait, there's a NEW Zealand now?

[digitize]

But America is the only first-world democracy in the world, no? All the others are battling between communism and Islamic fundamentalism. They all have GDPs per capita in the ~US$100 range I heard. It's because of universal health care. I know because I went to Mexico once.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by elevated_u2_fan

Wait, there's a NEW Zealand now?

Yep, the original Zealand is still a province in The Netherlands. Try finding that on a map!

[deep]

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Zealand&ie=UTF-8&hl=en

[Pearl]

Out of curiousity, if New Zealand was a British colony, why was it named after a Dutch area? Were the Dutch the first to discover it?

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Pearl

Out of curiousity, if New Zealand was a British colony, why was it named after a Dutch area? Were the Dutch the first to discover it?

As per Wikipedia:

The first Europeans known to have reached New Zealand were Dutch explorer Abel Tasman and his crew in 1642.

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

I was going to say, many Americans are lucky if they can find their own state on a map, let alone any other country.

lol, seriously. when i tell people my husband is from new zealand, you'd be amazed how many people then later (as in during the same conversation) don't even get the country name right. most think he's from nigeria. yep, he tried to pull that email scam telling me i was being given millions but i won his heart instead!

everyone else says whatever country they can think of beginning with an n, usually the netherlands. don't even get me started on where people guess it is on a map...

[BoMac]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

I was going to say, many Americans are lucky if they can find their own state on a map, let alone any other country.

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

lol, seriously. when i tell people my husband is from new zealand, you'd be amazed how many people then later (as in during the same conversation) don't even get the country name right. most think he's from nigeria. yep, he tried to pull that email scam telling me i was being given millions but i won his heart instead!

everyone else says whatever country they can think of beginning with an n, usually the netherlands. don't even get me started on where people guess it is on a map...

Guys...guys. Have you considered maps for everyone as the solution to this problem?

"I personally believe the U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh...people out there in our nation don't have maps, and, uh, I believe that our education like such as South Africa and, uh, the Iraq everywhere like, such as and...I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., err, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future for our...

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Axver

A strange mythical land of savages with healthcare.

Is it better than Old Zealand?

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Axver

Best post in the thread.

Plus Paul Ryan has clearly not read a single sentence of New Zealand history. If you want a country founded on ideas - Wakefieldianism being foremost - then there's one (South Australia would count too if it were a country). I suppose it's too much to hope somebody might hit him around the head with a copy of Miles Fairburn's The Ideal Society and Its Enemies.

Let me ask you Axver since you would know better than anyone, does Bono give this speech everywhere?

U2 360 Tour Chicago - U2 @ Soldier Field - Bono "America is an Idea" - YouTube

We want to celebrate this country, a great, great, country. America. And not just a country, I come from a great country, Ireland, and as great a country as it is it's not an idea. America is not just a country, it's an idea."
Bono, July 6, 2011 Chicago

In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.

I originally only wanted to highlight that Ryan was echoing our favorite frontman but now I guess I'll have to go further.

What is that American idea? Well, let me finish and quote Paul Ryan's thought.

But America is more than just a place…it’s an idea. It’s the only country founded on an idea.

Our rights come from nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes. This idea is founded on the principles of liberty, freedom, free enterprise, self-determination and government by consent of the governed.”
-- Paul Ryan

"Our rights come from nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes." Well, that's the "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... statement in our Declaration of Independence. In other words, we are ruled not by a social hierarchy (the British monarchy) but by nature and consent of the governed.

Not founded on blood or soil but the creed that the individual's sovereignty be recognized, not the government's. Exceptional indeed.

As to Wakefieldianism, not claiming to know very much about New Zealand's political history but--America's first act as a country was to fire a king. Again from the Declaration of Independence.

That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved;

Correct me if I'm wrong but the New Zealand idea, chiefly masterminded by Edward Gibbon Wakefield, was... let's join the British Empire.

We fired a king, you hired one. And I don't say that to disparage your country in anyway. I'd love to visit sometime and all the New Zealanders I've met, granted they're all race drivers, are great folks. You'll just have to be more specific about the New Zealand idea I guess.

[BVS]

Bono invented American Exceptionalism!

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

lol, seriously. when i tell people my husband is from new zealand, you'd be amazed how many people then later (as in during the same conversation) don't even get the country name right. most think he's from nigeria. yep, he tried to pull that email scam telling me i was being given millions but i won his heart instead!

everyone else says whatever country they can think of beginning with an n, usually the netherlands. don't even get me started on where people guess it is on a map...

Ah, love... .

Yeah. Good point. It's like a game-let's play "Narrow down the countries!"

Originally Posted by BoMac

Guys...guys. Have you considered maps for everyone as the solution to this problem?

INDY, I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Yeah, Bono talks all the time about how great America is. And? Did anyone here say they explicity disagreed with that sentiment?

We don't disagree with the sentiment Paul Ryan is expressing in and of themselves (save for perhaps the idea that our rights come from God, but that's a whole other topic). The problem is that Ryan's policy ideas don't match his "America is wonderful!" ideas.

Again, I say, if you don't support equal rights for your citizens, you can't talk about how great freedom is. Free enterprise is a great idea. But not everyone has easy access to such a thing. And you can't rail against government control all the while supporting the government when they, again, want to deny people equal rights and try and restrict women's health and things of that nature. That kind of goes against the whole "small government interference" idea...yeah.

Just to name a few reasons why Ryan might be getting mocked for his "Go, America!" mindset.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Let me ask you Axver since you would know better than anyone, does Bono give this speech everywhere?


In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.

I originally only wanted to highlight that Ryan was echoing our favorite frontman but now I guess I'll have to go further.

What is that American idea? Well, let me finish and quote Paul Ryan's thought.


"Our rights come from nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes." Well, that's the "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... statement in our Declaration of Independence. In other words, we are ruled not by a social hierarchy (the British monarchy) but by nature and consent of the governed.

Not founded on blood or soil but the creed that the individual's sovereignty be recognized, not the government's. Exceptional indeed.

As to Wakefieldianism, not claiming to know very much about New Zealand's political history but--America's first act as a country was to fire a king. Again from the Declaration of Independence.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the New Zealand idea, chiefly masterminded by Edward Gibbon Wakefield, was... let's join the British Empire.

We fired a king, you hired one. And I don't say that to disparage your country in anyway. I'd love to visit sometime and all the New Zealanders I've met, granted they're all race drivers, are great folks. You'll just have to be more specific about the New Zealand idea I guess.

Sheesh. Why the aggressive tone?

[Axver]

I'll get back to that, Indy.

Originally Posted by Pearl

Out of curiousity, if New Zealand was a British colony, why was it named after a Dutch area? Were the Dutch the first to discover it?

Yes, Abel Tasman was the first European to sight New Zealand in 1642. He named it Staten Landt, but Dutch cartographers renamed it Nova Zeelandia (off memory, only two names given by Tasman survive: Cape Maria van Diemen and the Three Kings Islands). He also named Australia "New Holland", but that didn't stick ... Van Diemen's Land for Tasmania lasted until the 19th century.

New Zealand was not again visited by Europeans until Captain Cook rocked up in 1769, and he Anglicised the name. Irregular European settlement followed slowly until the British government annexed the country in 1840, partly to beat the French to the punch and partly because the Wakefieldites had decided they'd just go ahead and found Wellington without waiting for the British parliament to give them permission.

It blew my mind when I was in Boston as a teenager and went to a park founded before anybody in Europe or North America knew my country existed. This was meant to be the New World! Felt positively ancient to me.

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

lol, seriously. when i tell people my husband is from new zealand, you'd be amazed how many people then later (as in during the same conversation) don't even get the country name right. most think he's from nigeria. yep, he tried to pull that email scam telling me i was being given millions but i won his heart instead!

everyone else says whatever country they can think of beginning with an n, usually the netherlands. don't even get me started on where people guess it is on a map...

When I was in the US, I thought mentioning Lord of the Rings would do the trick. Initially it did. People were all "oh yeah, I've heard of there! Saw the movies!" Then I met one guy who gave me a blank stare on both counts. "You know, near Australia?" Blank stare continued. I gave up.

Another guy tried to convince me that New Zealand is north of Australia. I don't know if he was confusing New Zealand with New Guinea or if he was just dumb and couldn't fathom a colder country being to the south of a warmer one.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Is it better than Old Zealand?

Haha, though seriously, when I was in the Netherlands, I meant to visit Zeeland. Unfortunately ran out of time.

[cobl04]

I met a car museum owner in Sacramento who said "I forgot South Africa was even a county!"

He knew all about Australia though. He watched Sea Patrol religiously.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by INDY500

In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.

Is this a serious question?

Bono also regularly says "The world needs more Canadas" every time he is here. Does he say that everywhere else? Let me ask you, does that mean that the world needs fewer United States or fewer Japans or fewer Portugals?

You will also note that Ryan said that the US was the only country based on an idea. Which is not what I've heard Bono say.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by Axver

Another guy tried to convince me that New Zealand is north of Australia. I don't know if he was confusing New Zealand with New Guinea or if he was just dumb and couldn't fathom a colder country being to the south of a warmer one.

I would have asked him if the word "Antarctica" meant anything to him to explain that, but somehow I doubt it...