George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Good rules. I know I haven't always followed all of them and for that I apologize (looking at you AEON). I will try to be better tomorrow.

No need my friend - no need. Your frustration, in this case, actually helped me understand a few things better.

I have a good friend, a fellow officer in the Reserves - and he's black. He's a young LT and I'm his mentor (by rank, not by race). When we've had talks about life - he has shared with me many of the struggles you shared in the other thread (his own community thinking he's a traitor for becoming an officer, for going to college, for living in the suburbs...etc). At the same time, he also wants to retain the best parts of his culture (which he should of course).

Anyway - I do accept your apology (even though none is necessary) - and please accept mine.

[tim722]

Originally Posted by deep

continued

Trayvon Martin, the man who attacked George Zimmerman, was shot and killed in self defense.

Jury ruled that the black Trayvon attacked the white George. The white George, with injuries to his nose and back of his head, shot the black Trayvon in self defense.

President Obama seeks calm.

[tim722]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.

[tim722]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.

I'm sure you've been profiled as a gay man and didn't even know it. It just shows how far we've come to accepting the gay lifestyle that you don't even recognize it.

[tim722]

Btw. Sorry for jumping on Pres Obama the other day. I only seen a few soundbites of his speech on the news and figured it was an answer to one specific question. Didn't realize it was a 17 min speech. The news kept showing the same 4 sentences. I just recently watched it and thought it was very good.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

I was "profiled" just last week. I'm 33, but have been told more than once that I look much younger; early twenties even. I was in a fancy-pants furniture store that I just happened to be walking past on my way home from the auto parts store. Saw some nice looking stuff in the window, so I thought I'd have a peek (turns out I couldn't afford any of it anyway...jeez!). But guess who got followed all around the store by the upper middle aged store owner? Had I been black, should I have taken the "it's because I'm black" offense? More likely, it's because I appeared to be younger than the usual hoity-toity clientele.
About 10 years ago, I used to help a friend with his landscaping business. He was notorious for being late and one morning I found myself sitting in my car at 9 in the morning for about an hour waiting for him to show up out front of the property we were working on. A middle aged white man knocked on my window and rather rudely asked me what I was doing and that I wasn't allowed to sit there. After explaining the situation, he reluctantly decided I could stay; but remained suspicious. I assume he continued watching me until my friend showed up. Again, had I been black, could he have not done the same thing without being accused of racism?
My point is, what situation like these or like the one being discussed at length in the last thread could a black person be thought of as "suspicious", while satisfying your criteria for racism not being involved?

that happened to me not long ago too - i went into a cosmetics store for my annual stock-up lol and there was a Romany traveller family in there and things were pretty chaotic, and then they left and i was just in my own little world looking at pretty nail varnishes and things and filling up my basket, and all of a sudden this shop assistant comes and stands right next to me, shoulder to shoulder, staring at me and watching my every move, and she sticks to me like glue and follows me around the whole fecking store lol and then i realised she must've thought i was one of the Romany ladies (i get mistaken for a lot of things depending on where i am and what the context is lol) and i was kind of pissed off and angry at how rude she was - she was obnoxious actually! i wanted to storm out of the shop, but thought fuck it, i will do what i came here to do and more lol so i held my head high, picked up a years supply of expensive cosmetics, went to the counter, and whipped out my store loyalty card and credit card lol - the stupid bints were falling over themselves to be nice to me by that point, filling my bag with plenty of freebies - i don't shop there any more...

it happens a lot in all kinds of circumstances and it gets pretty annoying and tiresome... a friend of mine was always getting stopped by the police - he used to drive his dad's mercedes around as a teenager and would get pulled over all the time (he was from Ghana), he just used to laugh about it though because the police would always do their checks and look sheepish and let him go... exhausting though...

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.

when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by tim722

So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.

Everyone else has been able to discuss this maturely and without resorting to name calling. If you're unable to do that, maybe you should sit this one out.

[The Sad Punk]

Originally Posted by tim722

the gay lifestyle

[AEON]

Originally Posted by mama cass

when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol

Intense - I had no idea Paris was that bad...

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

You have to excuse me, but I laughed at the "redneck" comment - while I've never met you, the image I have had in my mind over the years was anything but a "redneck"

i am pretty much the exact opposite of a redneck. but i suppose the person was looking for a white person slur, and that's what came to mind.

Originally Posted by tim722

So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

where i live, yes, the vast majority of street crime is committed by black males, and the vast majority of victims are black males. setting aside the problematic term of "black on black" crime or violence (as if it counts less), i don't think it's out of line for me to be alert and aware. i also profile on age and especially gender.

however, i don't seek people out and follow them and walk around armed like i'm fucking robocop.

and i'm also aware that if i stiffen as someone passes, i've sent out signals that i'm sure they pick up on. i try to be aware of that, and i'm not sure what i could do differently, but i'm also aware that it would drive me bonkers if white ladies clutched their purses every time i walked by.

Originally Posted by tim722

I'm sure you've been profiled as a gay man and didn't even know it. It just shows how far we've come to accepting the gay lifestyle that you don't even recognize it.

being a vegetarian is a lifestyle, being gay is not.

i'm sure people know i'm gay, but i can honestly say that i've never felt threatened at all (can't say the same for some of my friends, however, as i know people who have been bashed and physically harassed). but Memphis and i are thick, rock solid men. and we also don't go places where we might feel threatened, and being gay you can usually "pass" if you need to, whereas you really can't hide being black. or white.

Originally Posted by tim722

Btw. Sorry for jumping on Pres Obama the other day. I only seen a few soundbites of his speech on the news and figured it was an answer to one specific question. Didn't realize it was a 17 min speech. The news kept showing the same 4 sentences. I just recently watched it and thought it was very good.

Originally Posted by mama cass

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol

exactly. there is a degree of "street smarts" that one needs in pretty much every city in the world. the only time i've ever been actively (attempted) robbed was in Prague (by a white woman, and i literally pushed her away from me as she went for my wallet) and the only time i've seen an organized pickpocketing was by white girls on a train in Belgium.

profiling is a part of that. but we need to be aware of the effects of profiling on other individuals, how the assumption of criminality breeds resentment and anger, and being a member of a minority that's still socially acceptable to persecute and demean by no less than members of Congress, i think i get it, the anger that must come when you haven't done anything wrong but someone is acting like you're about to do something wrong. it's maddening.

but another difference is, unlike GZ, i protect myself and that's it. i take defensive steps, not proactive, shit-starting steps. and i don't walk around with a gun.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

But Memphis and i are thick, rock solid men.

oh lawdy!!

[anitram]

I've seen this raised in a couple of places since this story broke out but I've been thinking about it a bit more.

What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.

Not only would it be terrifying, but would we feel differently if she started hitting him, knocked him out with a purse or maced him?

I understand that the situation would be different in that she likely wouldn't be able to get on top of him, break his nose, etc unless she was particularly strong and he would have been far less likely to profile her unless maybe she too was in a hoodie and he couldn't tell she was a girl, but as a woman, I'd find GZ's behaviour to be utterly terrifying and inappropriate.

And I think that's where my main issue lies - he played wannabe Rambo, walking around with a gun in his pants, with a history of violence or aggressive behaviour and seemingly not a lot of intelligence. He is the reason this whole thing went down. This notion that TM died because he "jumped" GZ...you know, BUT FOR the fact that GZ followed him, probably in a creepy manner, none of the rest of it would have happened.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by AEON

1) I don't think there was enough evidence to convict Zimmerman (and many posters in here seem to agree with that)

Honestly, I did not watch the trial coverage at all so I don't have as strong a grasp on the evidence as others might. Perhaps if I took the time to really study the trial I would come to similar conclusion to yours. Unfortunately, you have not done a very good job at convincing me that evidence you've seen is insufficient to convict him. Everything you've shared from what I assume is your more detailed knowledge of the case seems very circumstantial and subject to interpretation. I suppose I could understand why the jury would make the choice they did; I don't see that was the only choice they could have made.

Further, it seems to me that as you watched the trial/reviewed the evidence you felt certain what the outcome should be before the jury rendered a verdict. As you said, if they had rendered any kind of guilty verdict, even for manslaughter you would have felt that they were wrong and had been swayed by the politics of the situation. Both of us had an idea of what we thought should be the appropriate outcome to this trial (granted, you perhaps having a better handle on the evidence), so I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that questioning the jury's judgement is inappropriate. You would have been just as quick as I am to question the jury had they come back with a guilty verdict. This is not about the sacrosanct jury whose Final World must never be questioned. The jury decided what you thought they should based on the evidence; I feel the opposite. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by AEON

3) However - that agreement and empathy does not extend to needing Zimmerman to be convicted of a crime when there was not enough evidence to convict him. We can't solve injustice with more injustice.

He wasn't convicted. I think I have a right to disagree with that conclusion. That's all it is; a disagreement. I would not be interested in civil rights charges being filed against Zimmerman--I feel that's a losing battle from the beginning (and honestly despite the DOJ promise to further review their decision, I have a feeling they are not going to press charges). I do feel the family should pursue civil litigation as was done in the OJ Simpson case, and I hope they are successful. I continue to believe that Trayvon's death was wrongful and I continue to believe that Zimmerman should be held accountable in some way.

Originally Posted by AEON

Thank you for your patience with me. Please try and I understand that I am listening to you - and your blue words on this blue screen mean something to me.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i am pretty much the exact opposite of a redneck. but i suppose the person was looking for a white person slur, and that's what came to mind.

Perhaps the folks in your neighborhood have not heard about "cracka"?

[maycocksean]

One of the things that I'm going to be talking about with my students this fall when school starts is how they can be proactive to reduce people jumping to negative conclusions. It may not be fair that people judge you by how you dress but they do, and you have to be smart about it. There is much in popular "urban" culture that I want my students to think critically about and make some choices about what they adopt.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

perhaps the folks in your neighborhood have not heard about "cracka"?

lol

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Unfortunately, you have not done a very good job at convincing me that evidence you've seen is insufficient to convict him.

Fair enough - I'd make a crappy lawyer. I was just trying my best to put the pieces together. Race was not a motivation/filter for me. For instance, in the second case that Turkey posted where the black man shot the white teenager breaking into his car - I thought he was not guilty (based only on the article mind you) - even though we will never know all the facts when one of the key witnesses is dead.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Further, it seems to me that as you watched the trial/reviewed the evidence you felt certain what the outcome should be before the jury rendered a verdict. As you said, if they had rendered any kind of guilty verdict, even for manslaughter you would have felt that they were wrong and had been swayed by the politics of the situation.

I only came to that full conclusion when the trial ended -and many people in this forum also agreed that either 1) the prosecution botched the case or 2) there simply was not enough evidence to convict Zimmerman. However - I have also contended numerous times that the concealed weapon laws should be changed.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Both of us had an idea of what we thought should be the appropriate outcome to this trial (granted, you perhaps having a better handle on the evidence), so I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that questioning the jury's judgement is inappropriate. You would have been just as quick as I am to question the jury had they come back with a guilty verdict.

The point I was trying to make that this was not a slam-dunk case, especially for the prosecution - and that making it into a rally cry of systemic racial injustice was/is misplaced. Had the case been a slam-dunk (let's say a video and several eyewitnesses clearly showed Zimmerman running down Martin and shooting him for no reason), and the jury came back with "not-guilty" - then heck, you might even get boring old me to walk down the streets in protest.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

This is not about the sacrosanct jury whose Final World must never be questioned. The jury decided what you thought they should based on the evidence; I feel the opposite. It's that simple.

Sure, that's fair. But did you feel they reached their verdict based on lack of evidence/reasonable doubt (in their view) - or do you think that there was a racial "filter" in place - something that influenced their decision making? Or both? You see - disagreeing with the verdict because we come to different conclusions based on the evidence and arguments is one thing - disagreeing with the verdict because we feel the jury simply refused to convict a white-Hispanic for shooting a black man is another.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

He wasn't convicted. I think I have a right to disagree with that conclusion.

Of course you do - I certainly don't dispute that.

Originally Posted by maycocksean

I do feel the family should pursue civil litigation as was done in the OJ Simpson case, and I hope they are successful. I continue to believe that Trayvon's death was wrongful and I continue to believe that Zimmerman should be held accountable in some way.

Yeah, I don't know enough about civil litigation (or any litigation for that matter) to know if they have a case for compensation - and a reasonable expectation to win. However - unlike OJ, Zimmerman doesn't seem to have a lot of money to surrender.

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by anitram

What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.

Then the TV talking heads and Twitter asshats would all be saying "She shouldn't have worn x" or "She shouldn't have been walking alone at night."

[AEON]

Originally Posted by anitram

I've seen this raised in a couple of places since this story broke out but I've been thinking about it a bit more.

What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.

Not only would it be terrifying, but would we feel differently if she started hitting him, knocked him out with a purse or maced him?

I understand that the situation would be different in that she likely wouldn't be able to get on top of him, break his nose, etc unless she was particularly strong and he would have been far less likely to profile her unless maybe she too was in a hoodie and he couldn't tell she was a girl, but as a woman, I'd find GZ's behaviour to be utterly terrifying and inappropriate.

And I think that's where my main issue lies - he played wannabe Rambo, walking around with a gun in his pants, with a history of violence or aggressive behaviour and seemingly not a lot of intelligence. He is the reason this whole thing went down. This notion that TM died because he "jumped" GZ...you know, BUT FOR the fact that GZ followed him, probably in a creepy manner, none of the rest of it would have happened.

I think in this case, Zimmerman would have had a difficult time claiming his life was in danger or that there was a chance for great bodily harm.

Than again - your scenario does show (again) how ludicrous it is to have an armed Neighborhood Watch.