GARLAND, Texas 2 gunmen killed outside Muhammad cartoon contest

[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by BEAL

We should have the right to mock anything we want. Poor taste or not.

Blaming the cartoonist (regardless of their shitty) taste is like blaming the women for wearing provocative clothing in response to her being raped.

Show some fucking control. Instead of shooting at these people, bring light to their real motives.

Tho they did prove what bunch of shit the religion of peace mantra is.

There is no real answer to Islam other than to let them fight it out with themselves. Let's stay out of it, we cannot win no matter how much help we try to provide.


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I'm very liberal and agree with the first part of your post. Everyone, including assholes, should have the right to say what they want to say. But the second part of your post is awful. As another poster pointed out, two guys in Texas do not represent a whole religion. It'd be like if I said the KKK or the Lord's Resistance Army represented Christianity. And "the real answer to Islam?" Islam isn't some monolithic religion, it's very diverse with many different branches. Quit being an Islamophobe and grouping a small percentage of extremist terrorists with the overwhelming majority of peaceful Muslims.


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[Oregoropa]

The cop took them both down with a pistol, while being fired on with automatic weapons. Don't Mess With Texas.

[BEAL]

Originally Posted by nbelcik

I'm very liberal and agree with the first part of your post. Everyone, including assholes, should have the right to say what they want to say. But the second part of your post is awful. As another poster pointed out, two guys in Texas do not represent a whole religion. It'd be like if I said the KKK or the Lord's Resistance Army represented Christianity. And "the real answer to Islam?" Islam isn't some monolithic religion, it's very diverse with many different branches. Quit being an Islamophobe and grouping a small percentage of extremist terrorists with the overwhelming majority of peaceful Muslims.


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Please, go look at the statistics. Liberals need to quit pulling out Islamophobe.

I will post a link at the end of this. Islam has some SHIT ideas in it's faith (as do the other religions). What you will find though is a majority, if not close to majority of support for these bad ideas.

Take the following poll question. What % of muslims favor death penalty for leaving the faith...

Turkey - 17%
Malaysia - 62%
Afghanistan - 79%
Egypt - 86%
Jordan - 82%
Lebanon - 46%
Iraq - 42%

*Edit: I did not post every single Muslim country in here. There were a few smaller countries that were in the low Teens, or Twenties for support of death penalty of Apostates. But Instead went after the larger countries in the region. Example Russia has a muslim population and they were polled at 15%*

Other than Turkey, which is considered the most secular of all middle east countries, you have majority, or close to it supporting DEATH to those who wish to leave the faith. 42% isn't a few bad apples, it's almost half the country.

You can find similar numbers on other polls for actions against those of blasphemy (cartoons). And a majority of Muslim countries favor Sharia Law. I don't know how you can be a supporter of human rights and sharia law (just like biblical law would fall out of our moral compass).

Again, I do not think every Muslim is out to cut off my head, or anyone's head. I do not see Islam as a major threat to this country. I do not feel nervous or uncomfortable around a Muslim. I think a good majority do what other believers do, which is cherry pick which verses to hold weight, and which ones to pass off as not relevant. BAD IDEAS should be struck down, without fear of being called a bigot, racist, or whatever else. I am not attacking Muslims, I am attacking the idea that it's considered OK to kill a human being for leaving the faith, for drawing a cartoon, for adultery, or any other silly reason. Death, or any sort of physical/emotional abuse is immoral and societies should stand up against it......

What is scary is these poll numbers show that a majority of Muslims, most of whom would not fall into the "extreme" side of their religion, support an extreme reaction to such a silly "crime". Does every one of the 86% truly wish death for those who leave the faith....who really knows. But my point is it's not just a small number of extremists that have extreme views.

You look at those who speak up against the human rights crimes being committed, and those who speak out against the extremists....and they're all risking their lives to do so. How would you like to be Rushdie, constantly in hiding for his life? Or any others who have had a fatwa placed against them? Where is the support for him and them in the Muslim world?

If you were to burn the Bible (as a public figure), seems silly to do so, some Christians might get upset...but that's about it. Burn the Koran and you'll have demonstrations in the streets, and you would most likely need to go into hiding for fear of death threats.

If this was just a small percentage of extremists, would you really need to take such precautions?

Christians don't go around burning non believers at the stake anymore. It's time Islam goes through the same transformation.

Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

[wolf]

Originally Posted by BEAL

Please, go look at the statistics. Liberals need to quit pulling out Islamophobe.

I will post a link at the end of this. Islam has some SHIT ideas in it's faith (as do the other religions). What you will find though is a majority, if not close to majority of support for these bad ideas.

Take the following poll question. What % of muslims favor death penalty for leaving the faith...

Turkey - 17%
Malaysia - 62%
Afghanistan - 79%
Egypt - 86%
Jordan - 82%
Lebanon - 46%
Iraq - 42%

*Edit: I did not post every single Muslim country in here. There were a few smaller countries that were in the low Teens, or Twenties for support of death penalty of Apostates. But Instead went after the larger countries in the region. Example Russia has a muslim population and they were polled at 15%*

Other than Turkey, which is considered the most secular of all middle east countries, you have majority, or close to it supporting DEATH to those who wish to leave the faith. 42% isn't a few bad apples, it's almost half the country.

You can find similar numbers on other polls for actions against those of blasphemy (cartoons). And a majority of Muslim countries favor Sharia Law. I don't know how you can be a supporter of human rights and sharia law (just like biblical law would fall out of our moral compass).

Again, I do not think every Muslim is out to cut off my head, or anyone's head. I do not see Islam as a major threat to this country. I do not feel nervous or uncomfortable around a Muslim. I think a good majority do what other believers do, which is cherry pick which verses to hold weight, and which ones to pass off as not relevant. BAD IDEAS should be struck down, without fear of being called a bigot, racist, or whatever else. I am not attacking Muslims, I am attacking the idea that it's considered OK to kill a human being for leaving the faith, for drawing a cartoon, for adultery, or any other silly reason. Death, or any sort of physical/emotional abuse is immoral and societies should stand up against it......

What is scary is these poll numbers show that a majority of Muslims, most of whom would not fall into the "extreme" side of their religion, support an extreme reaction to such a silly "crime". Does every one of the 86% truly wish death for those who leave the faith....who really knows. But my point is it's not just a small number of extremists that have extreme views.

You look at those who speak up against the human rights crimes being committed, and those who speak out against the extremists....and they're all risking their lives to do so. How would you like to be Rushdie, constantly in hiding for his life? Or any others who have had a fatwa placed against them? Where is the support for him and them in the Muslim world?

If you were to burn the Bible (as a public figure), seems silly to do so, some Christians might get upset...but that's about it. Burn the Koran and you'll have demonstrations in the streets, and you would most likely need to go into hiding for fear of death threats.

If this was just a small percentage of extremists, would you really need to take such precautions?

Christians don't go around burning non believers at the stake anymore. It's time Islam goes through the same transformation.

Muslim Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Why not list the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia, where 18% support the death penalty for leaving Islam, similar to Turkey's 17%? Also, the country with the third largest Muslim population in the world, India, is not listed anywhere.

In addition, out of the 20 countries surveyed about seeking death for those leaving the faith, only 6 countries had majorities of 50% or more supporting that view point. So clearly the majority of Muslims worldwide do not support this.

Why paint a religion a certain way based on the views and behavior of the minority?

[LemonMelon]

And how old are the Muslims being polled? Is there a generational shift away from violence or toward it? Or has it not changed at all?

[Babydoll]

Originally Posted by BEAL

We should have the right to mock anything we want. Poor taste or not.

Blaming the cartoonist (regardless of their shitty) taste is like blaming the women for wearing provocative clothing in response to her being raped.

Show some fucking control. Instead of shooting at these people, bring light to their real motives.

Tho they did prove what bunch of shit the religion of peace mantra is.

There is no real answer to Islam other than to let them fight it out with themselves. Let's stay out of it, we cannot win no matter how much help we try to provide.


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Who is we, and what are you (since you say we) trying to 'win', and what help are you 'trying to provide' and why?

Just curious

[Babydoll]

Originally Posted by wolf

I don't think the behavior of two guys from Arizona define Islam.

Exactly.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by BEAL

we cannot win no matter how much help we try to provide.


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That's some nice "help" you've been trying to provide over the years.

[Babydoll]

^Yep, lol.

Aaaaaaaaand, there is no verse in the Quran (that I know of, as of yet) that specifies this punishment (being killed for leaving the religion). Just some saying it's attributed to Muhammad, and not all sects believe that these sayings are even accurate.

[Galeongirl]

I don't think any of these acts of violence are fuelled by Islam anymore. There's millions of islamic people who don't want to murder their christian neighbour. It's being used as an excuse to do horrible things onto other human beings by people too messed up in the head to listen to any kind of reason. Just like the crusades, where christians used their beliefs as an excuse to mass murder anyone of a different belief, or dare I mention the war here. It's all a different scale, I realise that.. but the over zealous following of the ideals of a few radical people is fucking scary to me.

[LemonMelon]

As much as people like to separate themselves from animals, we're not all that different, and some are much closer than others in their behavior.

Certain people (for the sake of precision, we'll call them "fuckheads") do what they want, when they want, simply because they want to do it, regardless of the consequences. But because they need a way to justify their fuckery and get along in society, they'll piggyback off of a religious ideology or well-meaning political movement/protest/riot. This weak attempt at deflection works on some, but most see through it and rightfully place the blame on the fuckhead responsible.

These two Islamic men were fuckheads.

[Babydoll]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

As much as people like to separate themselves from animals, we're not all that different, and some are much closer than others in their behavior.

Certain people (for the sake of precision, we'll call them "fuckheads") do what they want, when they want, simply because they want to do it, regardless of the consequences. But because they need a way to justify their fuckery and get along in society, they'll piggyback off of a religious ideology or well-meaning political movement/protest/riot. This weak attempt at deflection works on some, but most see through it and rightfully place the blame on the fuckhead responsible.

These two Islamic men were fuckheads.

If only it were that simple, that others would feel the same and agree. Online comments on some news articles indicate that many folks feel that these dudes were acting on behalf of Al Qaeda, that this is all a small step in Islam's takeover of the west, etc.

Off topic, but you are awake very late, I just saw your local time

[anitram]

Originally Posted by LemonMelon

As much as people like to separate themselves from animals, we're not all that different, and some are much closer than others in their behavior.

Actually we are very different and I really hate when something like this happens and we are compared to animals.

Animals do not have foresight, do not premeditate violence, do not understand the concept of multigenerational revenge and their behaviour is driven by instinct. What this has to do with terrorism, human-on-human opportunistic violence etc is beyond me.

[DaveC]

Um, we are all biologically animals, you know.

Humans thinking they're different or distinct from every other animal on earth is what leads to things like religion claiming "dominion over the earth" and all kinds of various environmental abuses. When we segregate ourselves and see nature as "other" then we open ourselves up to abusing that "other" for our own benefit (which really isn't for our own long term benefit at all).

We are definitely no different from any other animal at all. We just happened to hit the evolutionary jackpot with our opposable thumbs, vocal cords and tongues and large brains. Lots of other animals are capable of reasoning, self awareness, learning, foresight, premeditated violence, abstract reasoning, and revenge across generations, just like lots of humans are incapable of many of those things.

Let's not put ourselves on a pedestal. We are just as much animals as skunks, elephants, and squid.

[PhilsFan]

We are very different and distinct from every other animal on Earth and to deny that on the basis of it feeding the ego of religion is rather silly.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

to deny that on the basis of it feeding the ego of religion is rather silly.

That's not what I said at all.

Our cultural and social situations are very different from the various species of animals, of course that's easy to see but it results from historical factors. I'm talking about biologically. Homo sapiens is just another species of animal, natural selection (and the Cretaceous extinction event) just happened to give us a fantastic deal.

[BVS]

We were raised by wolves...


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[anitram]

Originally Posted by DaveC

Let's not put ourselves on a pedestal. We are just as much animals as skunks, elephants, and squid.

I wasn't putting us on a pedestal.

It should be pretty clear that I think we are far worse.

And no, our brains do not work like that of even the lower primates, nevermind non-mammals.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by anitram

And no, our brains do not work like that of even the lower primates, nevermind non-mammals.

Obviously. I didn't say that, either.

[LemonMelon]

I managed to unwittingly derail this thread with a couple of sentences.

Not that it was going great before.