Fiscal Cliff Thread

[the iron horse]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Would children in Mississippi have the same educational opportunities as those in Massachusetts?

I fear that the red states would fall even further behind and would become even more reliant on the blue states if they are solely responsible for the public education of their citizens.

I am a public school teacher and I understand that this is a very complex issue on several levels, but as a libertarian I believe these issues can be best addresed by the states and local school districts.

[Axver]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

Allowing the states and local school districts to run the schools,
not the federal government.

What on earth is wrong with a nationally consistent educational system? Obviously you've got a massive country there, but I think it'd be much better to ensure children have the same opportunities and same educational standards no matter where they are than allowing a confusing proliferation of standards, funding, curricula, etc.

The differences between state educational systems in Australia are quite frustrating at times, but the wheels are turning painfully slowly on implementing the new national curriculum. Not, mind you, due to bureaucratic wrangling, but because of certain subjects and curricula being over-politicised by wankers more interested in soundbite point-scoring on the nightly news than actually educating children.

[PhilsFan]

I do not understand why I should trust state and local governments so much more than the federal government. Maybe it's because my state government is even more corrupt than the feds, but this whole "localize everything" magic pill that the right suggests never makes any sense to me. A lot of righties will cop out on same-sex marriage with an argument about states' issues that just makes zero sense to me. What the hell is the difference?

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I believe these issues can be best addresed by the states and local school districts.

that's...cute.

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

this whole "localize everything" magic pill that the right suggests never makes any sense to me.

yeah, this. what makes a state know more than the entire nation, exactly? no one stops to think how utterly confusing it would be for a child if they were to pick up and move mid-school year. that's already hard enough, but to find out the school in their new state are teaching completely different things? it's a surefire way to ensure said kid flunks for the year.

you say that's a small minority of kids (it actually happens more than you think)? well, what about just that all kids in the nation should graduate high school knowing the same thing? of course that's hoping they all actually pay attention to everything, but if we have some schools choosing not to teach grammar because it isn't important or some schools not teaching any vocabulary so those kids can only use tiny words, or some kids think photosynthesis has to do with a camera - and it's all because states get to pick what they want to teach? let's not even get into geography.

it needs to be set at a national level (as pretty much every country does) so every kid can hopefully have the same education, whether they live in oklahoma or ohio. if we leave it up to the states, who knows what the states will decide to start teaching. i'd be terrified of what tennessee would start teaching if they got to pick.

[digitize]

It's incredible how incompetent my state's government can be on educational issues, even when money isn't an issue. It ofter prefers a nice mixture of right-wing revisionism and well intentioned but dumb curriculum decisions. When I was in high school, luckily, at least the AP teachers has a propensity to treat state curriculum requirements as, ahh, recommendations.

[KhanadaRhodes]

when i took ap classes, i wasn't even prepared in the slightest for the ap test. fun times. it was a good thing they were only offered my senior year and they were free so i wasn't wasting my money or time. at least i did well in the classes (i remember making a 106 in ap psychology, yet only a 2/5 on the ap test).

and this was before that no child left behind shit. yeah, the state of tennessee should really be left to its own devices education-wise.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thankfully, Iowa generally does tend to do fairly well on the education issue from what I've noticed. Often when the list comes out regarding how well each state does with education, our state usually is in the top 10 or top 5 somewhere.

But even then, I think there are some things regarding this issue that just can't be left solely to local or state governments to deal with. This idea people have that we need to totally ignore the federal government on so many issues has become absolutely absurd. The federal government exists. It always has, and I don't see it going away anytime soon. No, they're not perfect, and yeah, sometimes state and local governments may well have the better idea. And if they do, fine, we'll go with it.

But we cannot shut out the federal side of things altogether. We just can't.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

I am a public school teacher and I understand that this is a very complex issue on several levels, but as a libertarian I believe these issues can be best addresed by the states and local school districts.

Children often move from state to state, and even with an education department many states and local districts are failing their children, the numbers show that those that move from say Mississippi or go to college from Mississippi have a much harder time than those from Maryland. So first and foremost a consistent education system allows children to compete.

Secondly(like I've said before) it also prevents local districts from choosing extreme cirriculum to our children. For example; you have shown yourself to have a very distorted and unfactual view on slavery and the Civil War, most parents wouldn't want that view being taught to their children in the classroom. So I don't want to leave those decisions up to you and local districts.

[deep]

all the attention on the home ionterest deduction is small potatoes compared to this

Corporate Taxes on Table in Cliff Talks - WSJ.com

I'd like to see a lower in foreign countries.

Even a true 20% paid is much better than a 35% that very, very few ever pay.

[deep]

all the attention on the home interest deduction is small potatoes compared to this

Corporate Taxes on Table in Cliff Talks - WSJ.com

I'd like to see a lower corporate tax

Even a true 20% paid is much better than a 35% that very, very few ever pay.

[KhanadaRhodes]

Originally Posted by BVS

Children often move from state to state, and even with an education department many states and local districts are failing their children, the numbers show that those that move from say Mississippi or go to college from Mississippi have a much harder time than those from Maryland. So first and foremost a consistent education system allows children to compete.

yes.

i would like to use myself as an example. in the middle of the sixth grade, over christmas break, i moved from florida to tennessee. when i got to tennessee and resumed school when the semester started, i was in for a rude awakening when i got to english class. they were talking about something i'd never heard of: prepositions.

yes. I WAS IN THE SIXTH GRADE AND HAD NEVER HEARD OF A PREPOSITION. yes, states should definitely be in charge of their own education. i don't know how florida is now with their english, but it was appalling when i lived there. it was non-existent. we learned there was a subject and a predicate every year and...that was it. i can't even say they focused more on teaching us spanish, as all they did was teach us to count to ten, the colours, and some basic nouns. no verbs. in sixth grade we watched muzzy (was that video called muzzy? i forget). and my parents made sure i went to good schools.

this is how things are when they actually have the nation to answer to, basically. when the states are their own bosses, then what? florida's free to let loose thousands of kids who don't know what prepositions are into the word? sure, you may think in the grand scheme of things no one "needs" to know what a preposition is, but it improves your writing which can lead you to some type of career in writing/journalism/whatever or even just lead you to send better-looking emails.

oh, and how did i survive the rest of sixth grade english? i had to cheat off someone's tests so i would pass. by the time i got to eighth grade i had a good teacher and finally got stuff like prepositions, adverbs, etc. thank god.

[mikal]

So.....are we all going to die in 3 days?

[Steved1998]

Originally Posted by mikal

So.....are we all going to die in 3 days?

Not if you eat your vegetables

[Pearl]

President Barack Obama, with his latest fiscal cliff offer, proposes extending the Bush tax cuts for everyone earning less than $400,000 a year, and paying for it by increasing taxes on the middle class and cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Obama Hits Social Security In Fiscal Cliff Offer Friendlier To The Wealthy

Let me get this straight - I'll get my taxes reduced under the extended Bush tax cut, but my taxes will go up because I'm middle class?



Sounds like a double edged sword when it's not good in any way.

[namkcuR]

Some crazy stuff went down last night.

As I understand it, Boehner took the President's last offer - which was giving up too much anyway for a liberal/progressive point of view - to his caucus and they rejected it. The President and Boehner essentially had a deal but Boehner couldn't get his people behind it.

Boehner than abandoned the talks he and the President had been having and announced that the House would pass "Plan B", a bill that was essentially a GOP wish list, that would've been dead on arrival in the Senate, and that would've been vetoed by the President even if the Senate had passed it(which they never would've because it never would've gotten to a vote). It was pointless theater, but yt was a a guarantee that it would pass in the house, they had the votes. But Boehner tried all day to get the votes and couldn't, and after an impassioned last-minute meeting with his caucus last night to give one last shot to getting the votes, pulled his own "Plan B" from consideration due to lack of support, and the GOP all left the building and Washington for the holiday, saying they might be back after Christmas/before the new year. They might be.

This was hugely embarrassing for Boehner. His speakership could be in jeopardy, which some are speculating is exactly what Eric Cantor wanted, and that perhaps Cantor held votes back on purpose because he wants to be Speaker. I.E. Maybe Cantor stabbed Boehner in the back.

Anyway, where are we now? There are three options that I can see.

1. The President keeps trying to cut a deal with the House, which would involve possibly giving up EVEN more. This is a non-starter for most progressives. We're done with the Tea Party-led House GOP. We want to move on.

2. Boehner cements the end of his Speakership by screwing over his caucus, and working with Nancy Pelosi to use the House Democrats+a minority of the House GOP to pass the bill that already passed the Senate, which is what the President originally wanted and better than the deal the House turned down. Boehner would have to really screw himself for this to happen though.

3. We go over the cliff.

At this point, I'm not so sure 3 isn't the best option. The President is going to have to give up too much to get a deal done with this insane House GOP. I'm not holding my breath for Boehner to work with Pelosi. Going over the cliff results in the full expiration of the Bush tax cuts as well as big defense spending cuts, two things we would never get otherwise. The obstacle, of course, is entitlement cuts. But some speculate that if we go over the cliff, the public will blame the GOP, the President's hand will be even stronger, and he'll be able to get the GOP to both cave on tax cuts for the rich and take less in entitlement cuts.

If a miracle occurs and number 2 happens, I'll take it. If not, I think I prefer 3 to 1 at this point. Don't give them anything else. Don't reward them for their behavior.

[maycocksean]

What could possibly be the rationale behind the president's executive order to end the freeze on wages for federal employees (including members of Congress)? It seems like incredibly poor PR as we prepare to plunge over the fiscal cliff.

[Dragonfave]

I'll just post this here:

Lindsey Graham On Fiscal Cliff: 'Hats Off To The President, He Won' - YouTube

[U2DMfan]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

What could possibly be the rationale behind the president's executive order to end the freeze on wages for federal employees (including members of Congress)? It seems like incredibly poor PR as we prepare to plunge over the fiscal cliff.

First of all, I have heard nothing about this yet so I am blindly responding...

I would guess he has to lift the freeze so that they can cut them?
That's sort of my initial reaction. I Googled and found nothing on this.

He could also be trying to place the onus on them to justify their automatic pay raises. In other words, it might require legislation to stop it from happening. And they would then have to go and literally say "this is what we deserve to be paid" with new legislation (or do nothing and accept their new 'raises'). Which then will place enormous political pressure on them (both sides) to act. Just a total guess.

[digitize]

And o'er the cliff we go. The House has adjourned. The Senate may still vote tonight. The House may pass what the Senate passes tomorrow. From what I understand, Biden and McConnell have been leading negotiations, so this sort of makes sense.

[BoMac]

Apparently a deal has been reached.