Explosions at the Boston Marathon

[Jive Turkey]

No problem

[dazzledbylight]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

I was making a broader point that Islam breeds extremism and ultraconservatism. Although I'm sure I'll be painted as a bigot for saying that here.

I used to be very defensive towards Islam and thought their religion is just as peaceful as Christianity and that it's just the supposed few radical Jihadists that give it a bad name. Then I went to Afghanistan and saw Islamic society in person. It's so twisted. I feel so bad for women who have to live in these societies.

And it's not just there. Seriously, would anyone like to live in Iran? Or Pakistan? Syria, Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen.... the list goes on.

And have you ever read how the American Christian Dominionists want to treat women, people of color, the LGBT community, non-"belivers" etc should they (shudder ) ever take over the USA?

As a woman I wouldn't want to live in the countries you've mentioned.

Iraq (not excusing Saddam's own horrific actions) pre-USA-invasion was a secular country. Women drove, were in Universities as students, held various kinds of jobs including i believe in the professional classes, they could go where ever they wanted, dressed the way wanted to etc

[dazzledbylight]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

It has more to do with the tenants of Islam (which I admittedly am far from an expert on). Spreading religion by the sword and what not. If we're going to argue that gun culture in the states fosters violence, then we should recognize that the 'culture' of the quran has the same affect (and vice versa)

"
well we have the Spanish forcibly trying to convert the "heathen" Native Americans....

and even later in The States particularly late 1880's and into some part of the 20th century ?into the 30's maybe 40's forceable coersion of Native American children into boarding schools, forebiddining their language, forebidening their religious practices.....

on the other hand
and I am a bit peeved that some of you seem to equate all religions with conserve, intolerence etc
I as a born & bred NYC'r have been fortunate to know about some of the most liberal, ecumenical churches, temples etc here
i left my own (and organized) relgion long ago tho there are some very good aspects.... i consider myself a spiritual person who also follows science as well....

[dazzledbylight]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

And yeah I know the WBC wants you dead, but my point was they're not going to come into your home and shoot you.[COLOR="Red"] But hey they also want me dead too, so there's something we have in common![COLOR]

wait...i know why Islamic Extremists would want Irvine dead...but why would you be a target? Secular Humanist?

[BEAL]

I think history has shown nearly all religions to be violent.

Christians seem to have adapted to a secular society. Could be society would have banished them, or enough of them realized burning at the stake and witch hunts eventually would have cost them all their lives.

Islam is still trying to figure this out. Geography probably plays a part but overall I think Islam is a more violent religion. Does the Koran have a New Testament style book with some hippie preaching love (and of course contradicting it a few gospels later )

How come Christians living in Palestine don't blow themselves up? Are they not in the same boat as their Muslim neighbors?

Not sure what the solution is. Education over in the Middle East would help. Liberating women. Quit bombing the crap out of it by us and other western allies. But we also can't sit back and allow radicals to grow and form against us.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by BEAL

Not sure what the solution is. Education over in the Middle East would help.

Lack of secular education in these countries is one of the main problems. With secular education comes critical thinking, a lower level of religiosity or at least a religiosity that doesn't so often border on the fanatical, exposure to philosophies and ways of life other than your own, increased interaction with the external world and so on.

I worked with a woman once who was one of the very first Chinese students allowed to go abroad and study - sometime in the 80s. She had just gotten married and she and her husband were graduate students who studied in the UK and I believe at Berkley. She said that prior to this wave of Chinese students going over, she and everyone she knew was completely brainwashed. They truly believed that China was paradise, that Americans were starving and working like slaves, there were videos of the violent 60s in the US, the racial clashes, etc playing on Chinese state TV and so on. It was only when people were permitted to go abroad, little by little, that they started coming home with totally different narratives, with awesome gifts of clothing, toys, electronics for their families back home, etc. She said that the society very quickly began to open up. That's what you need in the Middle East and I do think that secular education would be a major step towards it.

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by anitram

Lack of secular education in these countries is one of the main problems. With secular education comes critical thinking, a lower level of religiosity or at least a religiosity that doesn't so often border on the fanatical, exposure to philosophies and ways of life other than your own, increased interaction with the external world and so on.

That's what you need in the Middle East and I do think that secular education would be a major step towards it.

It will be a very long time before that happens. Islamic clerics have a tight grip on the Middle East, and even South Asia. Muslims in those areas seem to be leaning toward radical Islam, though maybe for political reasons rather than religious. It's all a big mess and it will take a lot for secularism to penetrate these areas. And really, a lot.

And it's interesting you mentioned exposure to philosophies. In the medieval period, the Islamic world was known for studying Greek philosophy, and other non-Islamic subjects like astronomy and mathematics. Now the Islamic world and the West have flipped tables - we're expanding our minds while they're being more narrow minded.

[BoMac]

These guys weren't very smart. # 9 is my favourite.

The 11 Most Mystifying Things the Tsarnaev Brothers Did | Mother Jones

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule

everything I've read about him said he didn't become fervently devout until only a few years ago.

Fervently devout? By what standards, by watching online videos of Al Alwaki and whoever else he was watching? Wasn't Psy gangham style. According to the Boston Globe he was ejected from a local mosque. When the Imam started preaching about Martin Luther King and his peaceful principles, black hat (not gonna use his name, sorry) allegedly started yelling that he was a traitor to the religion, etc. So fervently devout, well he was apparently following videos of those who have twisted that religion for their own political and sick purposes. Remains to be seen if he was attending any sort of radical mosques outside of this country when he traveled back home. But if that Globe story is accurate, well it would fit in with the idea that these two were self radicalized.

What was it within them, what was it about their lives and their character makeup that allowed that to flourish? The older guy's wife was reported to be working 80 hours a week as a home health aide. I assume to support their child, because I don't know what he was doing to that end. Had lots of free time to watch videos while she worked, I guess.

[MrsSpringsteen]

He wasn't permanently ejected from the mosque. This is what they said

On Monday afternoon, the Islamic Society of Boston released a statement with more information about the Tsarnaev brothers' relationship to the Cambridge mosque. The statement largely confirms earlier reports but offers more details. "As the details related below will show ... one suspect disagreed with the moderate American-Islamic theology of the ISB Cambridge mosque," it says. Part of it is reprinted below.

Below is the detailed account of the suspects’ connection to our mosque related to us from our congregants to date:

-- Neither the ISB Board nor staff ever interacted with the suspects. When congregants have shared their knowledge of the suspects, the ISB leadership immediately instructed them to call the FBI.

-- The suspects were neither members nor regular attendees of our Cambridge mosque. The older suspect began coming intermittently to our congregational prayers on Friday over a year ago and occasionally to our daily prayers. The younger suspect was rarely seen at the center, coming only occasionally for prayer.

-- On November 16, 2012 at our weekly congregational prayer, one of our preachers sermonized that it was appropriate to celebrate national holidays like July 4th and Thanksgiving, just like the birthday of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him). The older suspect stood up during the sermon and challenged the preacher, arguing that celebration of anyholiday was not allowed in the faith. After the sermon ended and the congregational prayer was finished, the preacher met with the older suspect to share his opinion. The suspect repeatedly argued his viewpoint, and then left.

-- On January 18, 2013, one of our preachers noted that Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a great person remembered in history. The older suspect stood up, shouted and called him a “non-believer”; said that he was “contaminating people’s mind”; and began calling him a hypocrite. People of the congregation, in turn, shouted back at the older suspect, “Leave now!” Due to the congregation’s disapproval, he left the sermon.

-- After the sermon and the congregational prayer ended, a few volunteer leaders of the mosque sat down with the older suspect and gave him a clear choice: either he stops interrupting sermons and remains silent or he would not be welcomed. While he continued to attend some of the congregational prayers after the January incident, he neither interrupted another sermon nor did he cause any other disturbances.

The ISB leadership must note that this is the account we have to date.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by BoMac

These guys weren't very smart. # 9 is my favourite.

It really seems like these guys expected to never get caught.

[MrsSpringsteen]

They definitely didn't act like the brightest bulbs. First timers, could have gotten better with practice.

The man they carjacked and robbed, they said they wouldn't kill him because he was Chinese..when they stopped for gas for the car white hat went into the gas station store, I think that's when he was captured on security camera. The older brother was pumping the gas and the man decided to make his escape. Black hat tried to catch him but the man said he ran so fast that he couldn't. He made it to another gas station, where the attendant hid him in a supply closet and called 911.

I think they killed the police officer just because they wanted to, they were that sick. If reports are accurate he never even saw them, so that wouldn't be a motive. Don't know why they were even near MIT or if they were ever actually on the campus. If they were going to try another terrorist act there, who knows. The officer's funeral is today.

There are also reports that the younger one had stuff right in his dorm room-possibly bomb making materials, etc. Where and how did they get the guns too, another important question.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Statement from Denise and Bill Richard regarding Martin Richard’s burial and memorial service

“The outpouring of love and support over the last week has been tremendous. This has been the most difficult week of our lives and we appreciate that our friends and family have given us space to grieve and heal.
A private Funeral Mass was celebrated this morning with immediate family. We laid our son Martin to rest, and he is now at peace. We plan to have a public memorial service in the coming weeks to allow friends and loved ones from our community to join us for a celebration of Martin’s life.”

Read more: Boston Marathon bombing suspect charged | WCVB



I'm very relieved for them, that they were able to bury him privately. Denise sustained a brain injury, and Martin's sister lost a leg.

Rest in peace little Martin

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by anitram

It really seems like these guys expected to never get caught.

Or perhaps they knew it was only a matter of time and wanted some form of martyrdom.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Or perhaps they knew it was only a matter of time and wanted some form of martyrdom.

I don't think you go to frat parties and the gym if you're seeking martyrdom

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

I don't think you go to frat parties and the gym if you're seeking martyrdom

I think there's a world of difference between the two brothers.

They seemed armed and wanting a fight.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

I think there's a world of difference between the two brothers.

They seemed armed and wanting a fight.

Who knows. Of course white hat is going to throw older brother under the bus now, and he has literally (well Benz SUV) and figuratively. Apparently. Maybe white hat was just better at fooling people and living a double life. All of his friends and classmates talk about what a great guy they thought he was. And those who thought it might be him in the photos-nah, couldn't be. No way. No one called about the photos.

No martyrdom behavior evident, until things started closing in on them and they were going to use up what bombs and ammo they had left.

[DRay9911]

Originally Posted by anitram

It really seems like these guys expected to never get caught.

If the guy in the cowboy hat doesn't put a tourniquet on the legs of the guy who was able to ID one of the two guys, this thing could still be going.

Crazy how things happen

[The_Pac_Mule]

And have you ever read how the American Christian Dominionists want to treat women, people of color, the LGBT community, non-"belivers" etc should they (shudder ) ever take over the USA?

Again with the Christian comparisons. Yes they're out there but they pose absolutely no threat in today's society. Because within the small percentage of fundamentalist Christians left in todays society is an even smaller percentage of those fundies who would be willing to use violence to achieve their ends.

wait...i know why Islamic Extremists would want Irvine dead...but why would you be a target? Secular Humanist?

I was talking about the westboro baptist church. And I assume they would want me dead because I was in the Marines. And "god kills soldiers" and stuff so

If I was talking about islamic extremists I think the question would be why wouldn't I be a target.

Christians seem to have adapted to a secular society.

Right.

Islam is still trying to figure this out.

They're not trying very hard. The supposed Arab Spring uprising in Egypt has done nothing but replace a tough but secular dictator was an extremely fundamentalist, "democratic" (unless you're a woman. Or Christian) government. The same will probably follow in Syria.

How come Christians living in Palestine don't blow themselves up? Are they not in the same boat as their Muslim neighbors?

Probably because while they are persecuted and hated by their Muslim neighbors, their religion doesn't preach that. Islam does.

Does the Koran have a New Testament style book with some hippie preaching love

Not really.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Basically Jesus preached to love your neighbor, whereas Mohammed preached to conquer your neighbor with the sword. The Koran thoroughly preaches offensive warfare against unbelievers.

And it's interesting you mentioned exposure to philosophies. In the medieval period, the Islamic world was known for studying Greek philosophy, and other non-Islamic subjects like astronomy and mathematics. Now the Islamic world and the West have flipped tables - we're expanding our minds while they're being more narrow minded.

They've continually moved backwards and are continuing to do so.

What I'm trying to say is this, if you interpret the Bible literally, you're going to have a shitty belief system. If you interpret the Koran literally you're going to have a shitty belief system. But only the latter advocates for violence and destruction. And it's a lot easier to interpret the Koran that way than it is the Bible.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by DRay9911

If the guy in the cowboy hat doesn't put a tourniquet on the legs of the guy who was able to ID one of the two guys, this thing could still be going.

Crazy how things happen

From what I understand there is plenty of video putting them on the scene (including obvious video of at least one brother setting down the backpack, walking away and then having it explode shortly thereafter). The poor man who lost both his legs and made the ID did a lot to speed up the identification process but I think these two would have been caught regardless.