Egyptian Violence

[BVS]

Do you dispute the facts of the article, or are you going to hope we all settle for your ad hominem fallacy? On the other hand, maybe the Left is getting its act together. It turns out this author worked for Al Gore.

I was speaking to the publication itself and it's publisher.

I would have to look into the facts(although they seem pretty thin), but when you start off an article like

Unfortunately, America’s top newspapers find it too hot to handle

I have to wonder what the point of the article is...

Having religious leaders have rule over governmental law is dangerous, no matter what the religion. Minorities will be targeted and blamed.

 

[Irvine511]

i deplore all violence, and i understand that in some parts of the world, religious violence is aimed at Christians. it's every bit as bad as all other religiously-motivated animus.

can we move on now?

 

[AEON]

it's every bit as bad as all other religiously-motivated animus.

can we move on now?

Maybe. Do you really think in this day and age, there is any other religion that is slaughtering "non-adherents" on the scale of Islam?

Is it possible there is not as much intellectual and popular opposition to Islam because professors and journalists are afraid of reprisals?

 

[AEON]

I have to wonder what the point of the article is...

That WAS the point

Having religious leaders have rule over governmental law is dangerous, no matter what the religion. Minorities will be targeted and blamed.

True, but how many Christian/Buddhist/Jewish theocracies exist in the world today? There are several such Islamic states and another handful that are not exactly there, but are close to it.

One of the few exceptions is modern Turkey - but of course, the Christians were already wiped out about 100 years ago:

wikipedia The Armenian Genocide was the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland in the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey. It took place during and after World War I and was implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and forced labor, and the deportation of women, children, the elderly and infirm on death marches to the Syrian Desert. The total number of people killed as a result has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians, the Greeks and other minority groups were similarly targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government, and their treatment is considered by many historians to be part of the same genocidal policy.

 

[LJT]

The violence in Egypt doesn't fit neatly into the 'it's all Islam's' fault anyway. A great number of people in Egypt seem to have voted a for a mainly Islamic government (now I know there are reports of vote fraud and intimidation but then there are plenty also saying it was a fair enough election. either way its a bit inconclusive what actually happened). Before this Egypt was more or less a secular dictatorship which abused its people. While Morsi certainly started implementing a form of theocracy he was elected by the people as far as we know. Now we have a a country being controlled by its military which is quite secular in its outlook murdering former supporters of the deposed government, a broad swathe of whom appear to be relatively innocent protesters. And then you have the Islamic fundamentalists targetting the Christians, no doubt as scapegoat for what they see as Western influence in their affairs and of course it's awful and wrong of them to do this.

But as you can see its not really a simple right or wrong situation where the Muslims are the bad guys and the biggest perpetrators of violence in this situation. I'd say the secular military is doing much more killing than anyone else in Egypt.

There have been wars in the Middle East where Christians have been just as evil as whatever Muslim force they are fighting against as well, such as the Maronite Christians in the Lebanese civil war.

And as always i'll argue the position that most violence is between the haves and have nots, very little is motivated purely by religions. This whole build up of Islam against the oh so brilliant West is absurd.

 

[LJT]

That WAS the point

True, but how many Christian/Buddhist/Jewish theocracies exist in the world today? There are several such Islamic states and another handful that are not exactly there, but are close to it.

One of the few exception is modern Turkey - but of course, the Christians were already wiped out about 100 years ago:

The Nazis tried to wipe out the Jews only 60 years ago, Russians did similar with their ethnic groups, the Chinese in parts continue to suppress many of its ethnic groups. Its not so much a uniquely Islamic quality, Britain itself has been involved in the slaughter and torture of the Mau Maus (hey and why not throw in where i'm from Northern Ireland as well).

Lots of historical examples near and far.

 

[AEON]

The Nazis tried to wipe out the Jews only 60 years ago, Russians did similar with their ethnic groups, the Chinese in parts continue to suppress many of its ethnic groups. Its not so much a uniquely Islamic quality, Britain itself has been involved in the slaughter and torture of the Mau Maus (hey and why not throw in where i'm from Northern Ireland as well).

Lots of historical examples near and far.

True - but Islam is the current "mean kid" on the block.

 

[AEON]

And as always i'll argue the position that most violence is between the haves and have nots, very little is motivated purely by religions. This whole build up of Islam against the oh so brilliant West is absurd.

That is true at the highest levels, at least in most cases, but these leaders will certainly use religious ideology to stir up the masses.

 

[LJT]

I'd really like to know what this weeping and wailing about Islam will achieve? All I get is a be on your guard? Against what exactly? This sweeping horde of Arabs descending upon us with their Sharia law? Should we ban Islam? Should we invade and sort them out? Should we have laws that are only applicable to muslims like none of that Allah stuff in public? All i'm hearing is 'BEWARE' in a comedic scary voice like the stone faces in the oublient in The Labyrinth.

 

[Irvine511]

Maybe. Do you really think in this day and age, there is any other religion that is slaughtering "non-adherents" on the scale of Islam?

this has been answered, but i'd also point to Buddhists killing people in Myanmar/Burma. seems so utterly antithetical to the teachings of the Buddha, but that's how it works i suppose since religion has a unique capacity to justify violence.

Is it possible there is not as much intellectual and popular opposition to Islam because professors and journalists are afraid of reprisals?

no.

i'm a little surprised at how much you're buying into this Clash of Civilizations thing.

 

[Irvine511]

I'd really like to know what this weeping and wailing about Islam will achieve? All I get is a be on your guard? Against what exactly? This sweeping horde of Arabs descending upon us with their Sharia law? Should we ban Islam? Should we invade and sort them out? Should we have laws that are only applicable to muslims like none of that Allah stuff in public? All i'm hearing is 'BEWARE' in a comedic scary voice like the stone faces in the oublient in The Labyrinth.

apparently Sharia law is waiting to pounce in the north of England and the southern US states the second we turn our backs, so best to strike first, strike hard, no mercy.

 

[LJT]

That is true at the highest levels, at least in most cases, but these leaders will certainly use religious ideology to stir up the masses.

That they will, like the Republicans do, like the Unionists often do back home in Belfast (they're like a mini bible belt). Like the Catholic leaders in France, or the Orthodox in Russia who were used quite well against Pussy Riot and in the current anti-gay legislation.

I'm of the opinion if we tried to create a fairer world which we really aren't interested in at the highest levels, you wouldn't get this violent appeal to religion quite so much.

 

[BVS]

That WAS the point

Wouldn't you have respected an article where the point was information rather than a vendetta against other media?

True, but how many Christian/Buddhist/Jewish theocracies exist in the world today? There are several such Islamic states and another handful that are not exactly there, but are close to it.

And here's one reason why all those "professors and journalists" aren't reporting it through YOUR filter, the theocracy is the problem, not so much the religion itself.

 

[AEON]

I'm of the opinion if we tried to create a fairer world which we really aren't interested in at the highest levels, you wouldn't get this violent appeal to religion quite so much.

I agree with you here. At least - I would like to think you're right.

 

[AEON]

the theocracy is the problem, not so much the religion itself.

In Islam - they are one and the same.

 

[BVS]

In Islam - they are one and the same.

That's incredibly weak. I know you're brighter than this.

 

[AEON]

That's incredibly weak. I know you're brighter than this.

Thanks for the encouragement, can you please enlighten me and how they are not the same? T

Islam cannot be “reformed” unless its caretakers repudiate its instruction manuals. But their repudiation would necessarily entail the repudiation of Islam. When the manuals go up in flames, so will Islam.

From the Ayn Rand inspired capitalismmagazine.com

 

[BVS]

Thanks for the encouragement, can you please enlighten me and how they are not the same? T



From the Ayn Rand inspired capitalismmagazine.com

Take a look at the history of man. How many theocracies have come and gone?

Take a look at Christianity, there are many that would still interpret it and want a theocracy that followed the Bible word for word. Luckily we don't have that, but we both know that given the right circumstances any religion can be manipulated into one and people would say the exact same thing you are saying about the Muslim religion.

 

[Irvine511]

In Islam - they are one and the same.

Do you know any American Musilms?

 

[AEON]

Take a look at the history of man. How many theocracies have come and gone?

True - and "gone" is what we hope for.

Luckily we don't have that, but we both know that given the right circumstances any religion can be manipulated into one and people would say the exact same thing you are saying about the Muslim religion.

I agree. But in our modern world, Islam is the only one successfully carrying this out.

I am with you and Irvine - I agree that a secular government is the answer. Unfortunately, in Muslim dominated countries, that's not what you get? Why is that?

 

[AEON]

Do you know any American Musilms?

Admiral Ackbar - "It's A Trap!" - YouTube

 

[AEON]

from that same article

Any theocracy must be totalitarian. It can become totalitarian by default or happenstance or by negligence, or it can become totalitarian according to an instruction manual written by clerics and intellectuals friendly to what they know in their minds are dystopias for the masses and paradises for the rulers. Islam has its instruction manuals.

Apologists for Islamism like to portray those groups as liberation movements, but there is nothing liberating about terrorist groups run by millionaires and billionaires, doctors and other degree holders, and funded by the ruling clans of Kuwait, the UAE and Saudi Arabia. These ruling families have the most to lose from modernization, and though they build skyscrapers in their cities, they also helped orchestrate the Arab Spring to topple more modern governments and replace them with parties affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood.

 

[LJT]

True - and "gone" is what we hope for.



I agree. But in our modern world, Islam is the only one successfully carrying this out.

I am with you and Irvine - I agree that a secular government is the answer. Unfortunately, in Muslim dominated countries, that's not what you get? Why is that?

Because the majority have a small ruling elite? Again a leftover of colonialism. It's not a result of Islam, the same as Kings and Queens were not the result of Christianity. Most of these Muslim countries did not exist 100 years ago, tell me how these many disparate groups of people, tribes and ethnicities who suffered under colonial rule were meant to band together into stable states with most power structures removed and borders created out of the desert?

That article you've just posted perfectly illustrates it is the rich and powerful orchestrating things to maintain their own power. It has little to do with the religion. Islam is just a tool, it is not the threat. The threat is the wild economic imbalance in these states that entrenches large sections of their populations in poverty.

I am not apologising for Islam, I don't give a crap about it. But your approach of demonising all of islam is only going to create more problems for you than actually dealing with the issues that exist in the middle east.

 

[LJT]

Quoting from an Ayn Rand inspired magazine is not helpful either, its an ideology heavily bankrupt of any human caring characteristics.

 

[AEON]

Quoting from an Ayn Rand inspired magazine is not helpful either, its an ideology heavily bankrupt of any human caring characteristics.

True - but I thought it was important to not use a source with a Christian based agenda. She was about as atheist as they come.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

How the American government has handled this from start to finish has been incredibly painful.

I don't for one second think they're stupid enough to fail to realize they've been aiding the wrong side from the get-go both in Egypt and across the rest of the Middle East like in Syria. I just desperately want to know the truth.

 

[AEON]

How the American government has handled this from start to finish has been incredibly painful.

I don't for one second think they're stupid enough to fail to realize they've been aiding the wrong side from the get-go both in Egypt and across the rest of the Middle East like in Syria. I just desperately want to know the truth.

Unfortunately - I think the truth is the only thing the US government (and all other governments for that matter) really care about is that the Suez Canal remains open for business.

 

[LuckyNumber7]

That would explain supporting the Muslim Brotherhood at first, but it fails to explain what's going on now, and it also fails to explain arming rebels in Syria.

This government had consistently played for the wrong side against "oppressive dictators" on the Middle East. Realistically speaking, the only "dictator" who needed to be removed from power was Gadaffi. Not Sadam Hussein, not Mubarak, not Al Assad, not the Egyptian military.

If what you were saying is true, they would never have gone to the extent that they have to destabilize the entire Middle East. It wreaks of appeasement.

 

[Diemen]

Admiral Ackbar - "It's A Trap!" - YouTube

Come on, you're better than that dodge. It's a trap inasmuch as it shows that Islam an theocracy are not one and the same, as there are millions of devout Muslims perfectly content to practice their faith peacefully in a secular society.

 

[AEON]

Come on, you're better than that dodge. It's a trap inasmuch as it shows that Islam an theocracy are not one and the same, as there are millions of devout Muslims perfectly content to practice their faith peacefully in a secular society.

The problem with the question, (and he asked the same question about whether I knew gay people), is that when it is answered - it is automatically cliche ("some of my best friend are [fill in blank]"). Either that, or you're attacked for not befriending a person of that group. It's a trap.