Egyptian Violence

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by AEON

The problem with the question, (and he asked the same question about whether I knew gay people), is that when it is answered - it is automatically cliche ("some of my best friend are [fill in blank]"). Either that, or you're attacked for not befriending a person of that group. It's a trap.

I honestly don't think that was Irvine's intention. I don't think your knowing or not knowing American Muslims makes a difference, but they were brought up because you seem to be ignoring their existence when you make a statement like "Islam and theocracy are one and the same."

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Diemen

I honestly don't think that was Irvine's intention. I don't think your knowing or not knowing American Muslims makes a difference, but they were brought up because you seem to be ignoring their existence when you make a statement like "Islam and theocracy are one and the same."

I know a former co-worker, she was Muslim - but not very active in her faith.

I also had a few Egyptian friends in my college days - they were not that active in their faith either.

The statement "Islam and theocracy are one and the same" - is based on the teachings of Islam. I thought the article I posted pointed that out.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

The problem with the question, (and he asked the same question about whether I knew gay people), is that when it is answered - it is automatically cliche ("some of my best friend are [fill in blank]"). Either that, or you're attacked for not befriending a person of that group. It's a trap.

ok.

find me a group of American Muslims who wish to restore the caliphate.

the wish for a theocracy is a response to economic crisis and uncertainty and cultural stasis brought about by colonial rule and then despotism more than anything else. things will be so much better once we get back to god. we're believers and we'll be rewarded for it.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

The statement "Islam and theocracy are one and the same" - is based on the teachings of Islam. I thought the article I posted pointed that out.

i hear a lot of "build Christ's Kingdom here on earth" from Christians.

does that mean they want a theocracy?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i hear a lot of "build Christ's Kingdom here on earth" from Christians.

does that mean they want a theocracy?

No.

For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, - Romans 14:17

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you - Luke 17:21

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

The statement "Islam and theocracy are one and the same" - is based on the teachings of Islam. I thought the article I posted pointed that out.

I cannot stand this type of lazy pedestrian commentary. You and I both know that non-Christians(and even those that claim to be Christian) have all kind of false understandings of what is truly Biblical teaching of Christianity. You are that person to the Muslim faith, I know I've seen your sources over the years.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

No.

says you.






(you see how that works?)

[Pearl]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i hear a lot of "build Christ's Kingdom here on earth" from Christians.

does that mean they want a theocracy?

I was about to say something along those lines. I'm sure there are plenty of Christians who would want to see a theocracy, but that doesn't mean the Bible calls for it (We've discussed this before, and I'm sure the consensus was Christ's Kingdom is more of a mindset than an actual government).

Now I haven't read the Qu'ran so I can't say if Islam truly is about a theocracy. I've heard the suspicions that it does, which is of course fueled by the actions of fundamentalists. I've known Muslims who were moderate and even liberal, and I highly doubt they would want to see a caliphate. Now the extremists are another matter. How many of them really exist, we can't be totally sure.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by BVS

I cannot stand this type of lazy pedestrian commentary. You and I both know that non-Christians(and even those that claim to be Christian) have all kind of false understandings of what is truly Biblical teaching of Christianity. You are that person to the Muslim faith, I know I've seen your sources over the years.

Why do you feel it is necessary to point out the perceived weakness in Christianity to defend Islam?

Simply look at the nations that are dominated by Islam - is that a place where you would want to live?

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

says you.

No - says the Scripture I quoted.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

Why do you feel it is necessary to point out the perceived weakness in Christianity to defend Islam?

Simply look at the nations that are dominated by Islam - is that a place where you would want to live?

so you think the issues faced by the Muslim world are created by Islam and not a history of colonialism, oil, and despots?

Originally Posted by AEON

No - says the Scripture I quoted.

you're interpreting wrong. i have a better hold on the truth than you do. my view is more in align with what Jesus really taught, and what i know God wants.



(you see?)

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

so you think the issues faced by the Muslim world are created by Islam and not a history of colonialism, oil, and despots?

A combination of many factors - including Islam.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

you're interpreting wrong. i have a better hold on the truth than you do. my view is more in align with what Jesus really taught, and what i know God wants.

okay...well then perhaps you should take issue with the way people are interpreting Islam's holy books, because it is this interpretation which is killing innocent people and keeping many of these countries enslaved.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by AEON

A combination of many factors - including Islam.

do you blame the dark ages on christianity?

okay...well then perhaps you should take issue with the way people are interpreting Islam's holy books, because it is this interpretation which is killing innocent people and keeping many of these countries enslaved.

i think i do. i've repeatedly mentioned the treatment of gays and especially women (51% of any population's brain power) in many Muslim countries.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

Why do you feel it is necessary to point out the perceived weakness in Christianity to defend Islam?

There you go again.

I am not defending Islam nor am I pointing out weaknesses. I feel like you're living in a heightened sense of victim-hood here. I'm just asking you to simply look at how badly some outsiders perceive Christianity and how often there are common misconceptions, or how often it can be warped by its "leaders". Can we agree on that? Now with that understanding are you going to tell me that you can without doubt tell me that the Muslim faith teaches that it has to be a theocracy? Really?

Originally Posted by AEON

Simply look at the nations that are dominated by Islam - is that a place where you would want to live?

And now you simply look at the age of the religion, the economic and educational backgrounds of these nations...

[AEON]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

do you blame the dark ages on christianity?

To a certain extent - at least in the way it (The Catholic Church) was applying the faith. I also give the Catholic Church credit for initiating the Enlightenment.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

i think i do. i've repeatedly mentioned the treatment of gays and especially women (51% of any population's brain power) in many Muslim countries.

Good. Those things should be called out.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by BVS

Now with that understanding are you going to tell me that you can without doubt tell me that the Muslim faith teaches that it has to be a theocracy? Really?

I can't say that it without a doubt - but I can say that there is currently a bloodbath going on in places like Egypt (hence the start of the thread) by those that certainly think their country should be an Islamic theocracy.

We're beyond debating the finer points of holy writings and how they should be interpreted. The fact is - people are actually dying in great numbers because of the Islamic theocracy interpretation (as correct or incorrect as that may be).

Originally Posted by BVS

And now you simply look at the age of the religion, the economic and educational backgrounds of these nations...

Islam is not a new kid on the block and it certainly has control on the level of education (or lack thereof) of the people which directly impacts the economics. It's a negative feedback loop.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by AEON

I can't say that it without a doubt - but I can say that there is currently a bloodbath going on in places like Egypt (hence the start of the thread) by those that certainly think their country should be an Islamic theocracy.

We're beyond debating the finer points of holy writings and how they should be interpreted. The fact is - people are actually dying in great numbers because of the Islamic theocracy interpretation (as correct or incorrect as that may be).

I agree, I just have little patience for those that fall for the "it's the religion's fault" propaganda. The last thing to fight propaganda with is more propaganda because then you start to lay the foundation for some "holy" war.

[LJT]

Originally Posted by AEON

I can't say that it without a doubt - but I can say that there is currently a bloodbath going on in places like Egypt (hence the start of the thread) by those that certainly think their country should be an Islamic theocracy.

We're beyond debating the finer points of holy writings and how they should be interpreted. The fact is - people are actually dying in great numbers because of the Islamic theocracy interpretation (as correct or incorrect as that may be).


Islam is not a new kid on the block and it certainly has control on the level of education (or lack thereof) of the people which directly impacts the economics. It's a negative feedback loop.

Again the current 'bloodbath' in Egypt started when a secular military seized power from an Islamic government and then started slaughtering the followers of that government. The majority of the slaughter is fairly one way currently.

Assad is a secular dictator slaughtering religious Muslims in the resistance to his dictatorship. Being particularly adherent to any religion in the middle east is not the cause, is nowhere near being the cause of its instability. Islam does not have the overreaching power you claim it has.

Poverty is the driver of the lack of education not Islam. Something we are only too happy to support in the likes of Saudi Arabia. Plus Islam is not one thing, its as fractious as Christianity is with the different interpretations in it. It's teachings vary from imam to imam and depending on how much adherence they give to the sayings to Muhammad (I forget the proper name for these) as opposed to the Quran. Plus of course many of things that get blamed on Islam are derived from cultural traditions mainly from Saudi Arabia such as the idea that women have to be completely covered.

[AEON]

Originally Posted by LJT

Again the current 'bloodbath' in Egypt started when a secular military seized power from an Islamic government and then started slaughtering the followers of that government.

I don't think it is as simple as that.

Originally Posted by LJT

The majority of the slaughter is fairly one way currently.

Are Christians burning mosques?

Originally Posted by LJT

Assad is a secular dictator slaughtering religious Muslims in the resistance to his dictatorship. Being particularly adherent to any religion in the middle east is not the cause, is nowhere near being the cause of its instability.

Assad will slaughter anyone. And Syria is complicated (as is Egypt) - because we have to ask ourselves which form of totalitarianism is worse - Islamic or Secular? We would obviously hope that a functional democracy would prevail, but how many of those are up and running in the Middle East? Do you expect Al Qaeda in Syria or the Muslim Brotherhood will bring democracy?

Originally Posted by LJT

Islam does not have the overreaching power you claim it has.

How do you gauge such a thing? The percentage of women wearing burqas? The number of minarets blasting prayers five times a day? If you don't want to call this "Islam" -would it make you more comfortable if we simply named it "Middle and Near Eastern Non-JudeoChristian Civilization"? Whatever this "entity" is - at this time in history it is entirely unstable and it's weighing down global progress in the way we treat women and minorities.

Originally Posted by LJT

Poverty is the driver of the lack of education not Islam.

As Irvine pointed out - when half the population can't go to school based on gender, the culture ( and therefore the economics) is going to suffer.

Originally Posted by LJT

Something we are only too happy to support in the likes of Saudi Arabia. Plus Islam is not one thing, its as fractious as Christianity is with the different interpretations in it.

It is used in the same context as the word Christendom.

Originally Posted by LJT

It's teachings vary from imam to imam and depending on how much adherence they give to the sayings to Muhammad (I forget the proper name for these) as opposed to the Quran.

Hadith.

Originally Posted by LJT

Plus of course many of things that get blamed on Islam are derived from cultural traditions mainly from Saudi Arabia such as the idea that women have to be completely covered.

Plus of course many of things that get blamed on Islam "Middle and Near Eastern Non-JudeoChristian Civilization" are derived from cultural traditions mainly from Saudi Arabia such as the idea that women have to be completely covered.

[LJT]

I never claimed it was as simple as that but the current bout of violence did begin with what everyone is desperately trying to not call a military coup.

Bah a fairly facetious answer, this what im trying to get you away from 'Middle and Near Eastern Non Judaeo Christian civilisation", there is no 'entity' that is the cause. Real structural economic problems, distribution of resources and wealth along with despotic leaders, will lead to an appeal to religion in a populace, which is a simpler explanation for why things are the way they are for people, it is also useful as a method of control, people can entrench their right rule as divine right much as in the dark ages in Christendom, but it is not the reason they were in power or how they maintained that power, leaders such as Assad, Gaddaffi, the Saudi Royal family all tried and are trying to keep their people's subjugated in order to maintain their political and economic advantages, they will do that with religion, politics, violence and their wealth, but religion is not the answer to why the place is a shit hole, you seem to be ignoring any historical context for why the region exists like it does.

The economic and political instability existed long before you have the current breed of islamic extremists.

The Christians may be getting attacked and murdered in Egypt, i'd still venture more muslims are getting killed by their own military. Plus its just silly to put forward the whole idea that one religion is much better than the others. When the Maronite Christians were the dominant force in Lebanon they were just as cruel and sadistic as any muslim during their civil war. Any religion when so dominant will tend towards theocracy, just look at conservatives and how they view women should be treated, while I am not giving that equivalency to how certain strains of Islam treat women and homosexuals there is a similar strain of thought between them. It just so happens we have a very watered down version of Christianity on the go these days.

Still I hear no answers to what should be done about it? Blaming it on Islam is washing away our own culpability in maintaining the Saudis as they are, who are one of the biggest funders of terrorism, but we are either to cowardly or greedy to confront that. Shit in supporting the rebels in Syria we were looking to allow arms shipments to Islamic groups.