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Old 07-27-2012, 09:12 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Dfit00
Venezuela recently passed a law prohibiting the ownership and commercial sale of guns to civilians due to constant pervasive armed crime.

Venezuela bans civilians from private gun ownership � Hot Air

I guess if the United States were in a similar position with increased crime rates, a law like this would be looked as a solution and not as the typical thing that the government interferes with the rights of the people.
To be honest, Venezuela is one place where I would truly be concerned about this interfering with the rights of the people. I can't help but think that this may have something to do with Chavez cracking down to help reduce any future revolutionary thought.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:37 AM   #82
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A lot of people, especially the victims' families, insist that the shooter should be given zero media attention.

However, shouldn't there be some focus on Holmes in order to make an attempt to study and understand what's going on in these killers' minds?

This way, we may be able to detect red flags and become more proactive to intervene before someone else does something stupid.

I know I'm really reaching here. But I find it disturbing how "mental health issues" are often placed on the back burner in tragedies like this.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:53 AM   #83
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I know I'm really reaching here. But I find it disturbing how "mental health issues" are often placed on the back burner in tragedies like this.
I don't think that's reaching at all. But the problem is, there's not enough evidence in this particular case to use this as an example of a situation that could have been prevented if mental health were taken more serious.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:20 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dfit00
Venezuela recently passed a law prohibiting the ownership and commercial sale of guns to civilians due to constant pervasive armed crime.

Venezuela bans civilians from private gun ownership � Hot Air

I guess if the United States were in a similar position with increased crime rates, a law like this would be looked as a solution and not as the typical thing that the government interferes with the rights of the people.
If such a law were passed in the US, it would be struck down. Any real change in gun ownership policy would require a constitutional amendment.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:32 PM   #85
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Well that, and hell freezing over...
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:44 PM   #86
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Well that, and hell freezing over...
Yeah, that would come first.
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:00 PM   #87
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However, shouldn't there be some focus on Holmes in order to make an attempt to study and understand what's going on in these killers' minds?
Yes, absolutely. But that focus and study should absolutely NOT happen in the media.
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Old 07-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #88
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The kid was never in trouble in his life aside from a speeding ticket. What are they going to do? Require mandatory screenings every year for every person in the country?
No, how about just mandatory screenings every year for those that choose to own a firearm.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:14 PM   #89
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Yes, absolutely. But that focus and study should absolutely NOT happen in the media.
Indeed. Its amazing to see "reporters" and op-ed writers analyze someone they've never met before and likely never will.

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No, how about just mandatory screenings every year for those that choose to own a firearm.
This I'm all for.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:00 PM   #90
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Well that, and hell freezing over...
As badly as I want serious gun regulations, I sure as shit don't want the type of catastrophe that would provoke a Constitutional amendment.

There's still an ounce of patriotism in me, but our own constitution has fucked us pretty hard here. It's going to take decades of small steps or one huge, scary big step to undo our cultural perspective on gun ownership. Thankfully, it seems as if many people are OK with those smaller steps, such as yearly testing.

Preaching gun rights is absurd when we don't even have the "right" to something that is often a societal requirement, like driving a vehicle.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:43 PM   #91
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No, how about just mandatory screenings every year for those that choose to own a firearm.
Who is going to pay for these? The government is essentially broke so unless you want the gun owners themselves funding a large scale bureacratic process, not sure how feasible it is.

Furthermore, what if somebody fails? You don't renew their licence but they get to keep their 7 assault rifles?
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:44 PM   #92
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If such a law were passed in the US, it would be struck down. Any real change in gun ownership policy would require a constitutional amendment.
Or 5 liberal justices appointed by a president who is "so over" a constitution that limits the powers and scope of government.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:45 PM   #93
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Yeah, the guns can't be taken away when the permit is

Don't think a mentally ill person is going to stop and say "oops, I can't use this gun because they took my permit away".
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:47 PM   #94
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If he is deemed to be severely mental ill, for example a paranoid schizophrenic, and if a clear link between the illness and the cause of the shootings is established, then the morally correct punishment is basically zero time in jail and court mandated pyschiatric treatment, followed by carefully controlled release into the community with perhaps a government assisted identity change to lessen the chance of vigilantism.

Unfortunately, this probably won't happen - as a society, we are in the dark ages regarding treatment of severe mental illness. I am looking at this from the point of view of preaching to Americans - Europe really isn't any better, though it's probably more difficult in most countries, to access weaponry of the type that this guy was able to, seemingly with relative ease.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:50 PM   #95
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He killed a dozen people and ruined the lives of many more. Mental illness doesn't excuse that, for me.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:55 PM   #96
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He killed a dozen people and ruined the lives of many more. Mental illness doesn't excuse that, for me.
Habe you ever considered a career as a tabloid media headline writer?
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:03 PM   #97
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I hate the tabloids, and I agree the way we care for those with mental illnesses is way behind what it should be, but I don't have sympathy for someone who murdered 12 people in cold blood, I'm sorry.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:28 PM   #98
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I hate the tabloids, and I agree the way we care for those with mental illnesses is way behind what it should be, but I don't have sympathy for someone who murdered 12 people in cold blood, I'm sorry.
That's a different scenario than the one financeguy was presenting, though. If fg's hypothetical is accurate, and it was indeed mental illness that caused Holmes to go on this rampage, and the illness is such that it essentially removed his ability to rationally judge right from wrong, then I think it would be difficult to say that he murdered these people "in cold blood."

Granted that's a big if, and this is all a hypothetical outcome as of now. But perhaps the reason we as a society don't care for those with mental illness all that well is due to responses like this, where, even if we're aware that mentall illness played a part, our gut instinct is to forget that and make the "cold-blooded" killer pay, tossing out any attempt at addressing the actual root causes.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:31 PM   #99
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From what I understand, sometimes the mentally ill are aware of what they are doing but can't control the madness in their minds. That madness then takes over their rationale and the lose touch with reality. If that was the case with Holmes, then personally I could only wish he had gotten help before whatever illness he might have had ruined him.
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Old 07-27-2012, 11:35 PM   #100
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I am looking at this from the point of view of preaching to Americans - Europe really isn't any better, though it's probably more difficult in most countries, to access weaponry of the type that this guy was able to, seemingly with relative ease.
Just to clarify, what I meant to post was, I am not looking at this point of view of preaching to Americans, etc.
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