Drones: legality & morality

[anitram]

I'm bringing over Vlad's post from the other thread so as not to hijack. Hope he doesn't mind.

My views on this essentially stem from my opposition to the US as an imperialist power (and this view is not limited to the US, I am fundamentally opposed to imperialism - it's not simple anti-Americanism). In addition to this, I have read accounts of innocent people's perspectives of being targeted by drones - and on an emotional level it's quite heartbreaking.

Looking at it on a more ethical level, and setting aside my already established beliefs for a moment, how can you be certain the drones are being utilised for the purpose of eliminating those who are deemed to be terrorists? Can you really trust the reports the state makes? Can you trust the data and the subsequent categories within it (for instance, the reported categorising of military aged men as potential enemy combatants unless proven otherwise)?

Even if I was theoretically supportive of drone strikes/intervention against US enemy combatants, I would still be concerned about the above.

The first point regarding imperialism I think stands and most reasonable people would agree. In my own view, imperialism and colonialism have been possibly the worst evil to hit our world in the last 1,000 years and are ultimately responsible for a lot of regional instability, ongoing petty warfare and religious strife that is happening today. Having said that, to me a philosophical opposition to this type of behaviour is fine on an intellectual level, but it doesn't actually do anything in the way of providing solutions for very serious problems. For example, if you see American drones being used in the Middle East as imperialism, fine. But what do you suggest be done with people who are clearly terrorists, some on a massive scale, likely guilty of war crimes at a minimum and genocide at worst? Should they be allowed to stroll around in the streets and direct further carnage locally, regionally and globally? Do we accept hundreds of thousands of Syrians, Iraqis, Somalis, Afghans, etc, etc fleeing their homes because of these hostilities? Close our borders? I mean, we don't live in the 19th century anymore, we are not immune to what happens 5,000 miles away.

And the second point I guess relates to one's particular level of trust in the government. Do I think drones may be used to indiscriminately murder people who are not terrorists? Honestly I think the likelihood is low mostly because I don't have faith that people are particularly good at covering up massive scandals of that nature. Could they be used for selective political executions? Possibly? Other things like espionage? Possibly. But truthfully I think those things happen in any event. It's not as if a "but for the drone..." argument here holds water.

My main interest here is in the alternatives proposed by people who are strongly against drones.

[PhilsFan]

US air strike in Syria kills up to 85 civilians 'mistaken for Isil fighters'

A US air strike killed more than 85 civilians, including children, in Syria on Tuesday after the coalition mistook them for Islamic State fighters.

Some eight families were hit as they tried to flee fighting in their area, in one of the single deadliest strikes on civilians by the alliance since the start of its operations in the war-torn country.

This seems relevant to our previous discussion.

[LuckyNumber7]

I was hoping this would've been a more enjoyable matured thread about the legality of personal drones and UAVs.

I gots me a pretty nice Phantom. Shoots pretty great video. No predator missiles though.

[deep]

We will remember these early days of drones as innocent and naive.

10, 15, 20 years down the road for sure.

[Dfit00]

There is a lot of drone activity in the US-Mexico border by drug traffickers who want to smuggle drugs past the border or transport cash to Mexico through the border.

I believe these drug traffickers using drones do their job more effectively than the government.

[Oregoropa]

Originally Posted by deep

We will remember these early days of drones as innocent and naive.



10, 15, 20 years down the road for sure.

Skynet


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by DaveC

Would Turkey Be Justified in Kidnapping or Drone-Killing the Turkish Cleric in Pennsylvania?

.

[deep]

That is my thinking, how can it be ok for the USA and not other countries. And it seems for the USA it is used only on extreme Muslins. Turkey, Putin, perhaps France will start using drone kills on terrorists.

Also, I just read they will be coming out a drone that can go 85 mph and carry an iPhone for filming. $1200. How big of an explosion with semtem the size of a cell phone. 10, 20,30 of these drones zooming into an event, what could stop them.

[LuckyNumber7]

Well, the biggest reason why it's not the same thing is because we don't want another county's bloody illegitimate politics on our doorstep.

When we fuck with another country's politics, we do it covertly. When we kill people with predator drones, it's usually because that country doesn't have the grasp on the region in which we are targeting.