Couple Welcomes 17th Child, Wants More

[anitram]

I will never forget when my great aunt, who raised 4 children, and never worked outside the house or continued her education past the 8th grade, said to me, "You can do anything you want. I loved my kids and my husband was kind to me, but I could not do the things you can do today. And I often think about what I would have become."

That's not to say she was miserable; but this so-called utopia of "back when" is something for people to look back now and think how wonderful it was. It wasn't necessarily heaven on earth for the people then...

 

[Butterscotch]

My grandparents have always talked about the "good ole days" as the best of their lives and bemoan how impersonal families of today have gotten.

It looks to me like several of you think these kids are miserable and will never be happy unless they are living in the city working some "professional" job and buying a lot of expensive stuff. You have to realize not everyone thinks that is a good life, just as you do not think the "Waltons" setup is a good life.

I tell you the truth, I was raised in the city with only 2 siblings and was expected to have a career. I hated the idea and always wished I had been raised in the country with a bunch of brothers and sisters and honestly that is how I would like to raise my kids if I get any.(but not 17!)

 

[martha]

It looks to me like several of you think these kids are miserable and will never be happy unless they are living in the city working some "professional" job and buying a lot of expensive stuff. You have to realize not everyone thinks that is a good life, just as you do not think the "Waltons" setup is a good life.

Your ability to jump to conclusions and make assumptions is very highly developed.

 

[martha]

I had been raised in the country with a bunch of brothers and sisters and honestly that is how I would like to raise my kids if I get any.

I was just out in the "country" visiting my cousin on her farm. She was talking about how the population density is changing, with fewer people living out in the country. Apparently, it's more difficult than city folk might imagine.

 

[Irvine511]

My grandparents have always talked about the "good ole days" as the best of their lives and bemoan how impersonal families of today have gotten.

It looks to me like several of you think these kids are miserable and will never be happy unless they are living in the city working some "professional" job and buying a lot of expensive stuff. You have to realize not everyone thinks that is a good life, just as you do not think the "Waltons" setup is a good life.

I tell you the truth, I was raised in the city with only 2 siblings and was expected to have a career. I hated the idea and always wished I had been raised in the country with a bunch of brothers and sisters and honestly that is how I would like to raise my kids if I get any.(but not 17!)

and it's great that you get to choose what you want.

 

[martha]

and it's great that you get to choose what you want.

Instead of having to submit and be pregnant for 25% of your life?

 

[Butterscotch]

Instead of having to submit and be pregnant for 25% of your life?

It was her choice. No one forced her. You people really need to be more tolerant of alternative lifestyles!

 

[martha]

You people really need to be more tolerant of alternative lifestyles!

Tell me about that.

 

[yolland]

Oh, I think what they're doing is definitely a choice. The very fact that they're constantly promoting themselves as Those People With All Those Kids through TV specials, websites and "seminars" reveals the self-consciously nonconformist nature of their lifestyle. 17 biological children for one couple is an eye-popping number by any culture's standards, and the notion that any and all attempts to limit or pace the growth of one's family are immoral is hardly traditional either. If nothing else, by nursing her children as long as a "real" traditional mother would have, Michelle Duggar would likely have gotten pregnant far fewer times. Making all your income off rental properties (that, and the marketing value of your 'quiverfull' as a curiosity) isn't exactly traditional either.

I grew up in the country in a poor family with 5 kids...wasn't a bad life, but it's not one I miss either. I wouldn't say the other folks I knew there were any more or less happy than people anywhere else. There were plenty of good times, everyone knew everyone else and people helped each other when major crises ensued; on the other hand, there was plenty of alcoholism and spousal abuse and broken families as well (and xenophobia--the country's no place to be a minority of any kind). Most of those people didn't have a lot of choices, though--by and large they were impoverished, poorly educated, and not in a position to offer their children opportunities to prepare themselves to pursue any other kind of existence.

In an effort to undermine our Christian heritage, the liberal left is doing everything they can to destroy the family values and ideals our nation was built upon. With this battle facing our nation, many have rose to the call to stand for what is right. In the past, conservatives who have chose government as their method of influence, have often had to turn to liberal controlled political consultant and service companies...We will be honored if you choose us to help you stand for truth!

Anyhow, how tolerant does that political call to arms sound?

 

[BVS]

My grandparents have always talked about the "good ole days" as the best of their lives and bemoan how impersonal families of today have gotten.

It looks to me like several of you think these kids are miserable and will never be happy unless they are living in the city working some "professional" job and buying a lot of expensive stuff. You have to realize not everyone thinks that is a good life, just as you do not think the "Waltons" setup is a good life.

I tell you the truth, I was raised in the city with only 2 siblings and was expected to have a career. I hated the idea and always wished I had been raised in the country with a bunch of brothers and sisters and honestly that is how I would like to raise my kids if I get any.(but not 17!)

I saw some similar leaps of "logic" in the gender bias thread as well.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I was just out in the "country" visiting my cousin on her farm. She was talking about how the population density is changing, with fewer people living out in the country. Apparently, it's more difficult than city folk might imagine.

I grew up on a farm and it was really, really hard. I hated it. The thing I liked was being close to nature, but it was hard work with not many positive aspects to speak of. Most of the neighboring farmers were depressed, everyone was dirt poor, the kids had no childhood, just work work work, we were very isolated which meant that my social skills were way behind the other kids', and both of my parents were miserable with very little time to give to their 3 kids because they were in basic survival mode most of the time and worrying about how they were going to afford to buy us new shoes. I couldn't even go to kindergarten because my two little preschool hands were needed on the farm.

I honestly have very little good to say about the experience except that I learned how to get by on very little, I learned not to care much for material things, my parents instilled within us a very high code of ethics, they were honorable but poor people, I learned how to cope with loneliness and to be independent, and we had some awesome vegetables. Beyond that, pretty much an 18-year-long nightmare.

I moved to NYC the minute I graduated from college (which I paid for myself through a loan, every penny of it, or I couldn't have gone at all).

The good ol' days aren't always what they're cracked up to be. If I had had the internet or even cable TV as a kid it would have brought unbelievable light and joy into my miserable existence.

I'm sure there are many people out there who had wonderful experiences growing up in the country on a farm. But that wasn't my experience, nor was it my parents' experience, nor my grandparents' experience. They all had a pretty hard time, too.

 

[anitram]

It looks to me like several of you think these kids are miserable and will never be happy unless they are living in the city working some "professional" job and buying a lot of expensive stuff. You have to realize not everyone thinks that is a good life, just as you do not think the "Waltons" setup is a good life.

Nobody and I mean NOBODY here said that the kids would be happier working a "professional" job. You seem to be projecting those thoughts on us for whatever reason. As well as taking giant leaps of logic.

 

[diamond]

. The thing I liked was being close to nature......
.... which meant that my social skills were way behind the other kids', .......The good ol' days aren't always what they're cracked up to be.

I think you turned out great.

dbs

 

[yolland]

I grew up on a farm and it was really, really hard. I hated it. The thing I liked was being close to nature, but it was hard work with not many positive aspects to speak of. Most of the neighboring farmers were depressed, everyone was dirt poor, the kids had no childhood, just work work work, we were very isolated which meant that my social skills were way behind the other kids', and both of my parents were miserable with very little time to give to their 3 kids because they were in basic survival mode most of the time and worrying about how they were going to afford to buy us new shoes. I couldn't even go to kindergarten because my two little preschool hands were needed on the farm.

I honestly have very little good to say about the experience except that I learned how to get by on very little, I learned not to care much for material things, my parents instilled within us a very high code of ethics, they were honorable but poor people, I learned how to cope with loneliness and to be independent, and we had some awesome vegetables. Beyond that, pretty much an 18-year-long nightmare.

The good ol' days aren't always what they're cracked up to be. If I had had the internet or even cable TV as a kid it would have brought unbelievable light and joy into my miserable existence.

Yep...my parents weren't farmers obviously, since my dad taught at the regional black college, so by local standards we were basically middle class (meaning our house had 4 rooms instead of 2, indoor plumbing, a small yard instead of a shared alley or working fields, we had time to take a local camping trip in the summer, things like that). But the majority of my classmates came from farming families, and their circumstances were pretty much like what you describe. We also grew most of our own vegetables, actually most people did, and definitely my siblings and I spent a lot of time helping my mother in the garden, as well as taking turns cooking, helping younger ones with homework, etc., though happily we didn't have to learn to sew, even though that meant a very limited wardrobe of hand-me-downs. And we did have a TV for several years, a huge old thing with all the funky glass tubes my parents found at some flea market, but there were only 2 stations, and ironically I associated it mostly with boredom, because my parents' main purpose in getting it was so we could all watch the nightly network news together, which often led to a dinnertime lecture from my father about the history behind such-and-such conflict. I don't think our town was quite as isolated as yours probably; there were several small businesses and a couple doctors and lawyers in addition to the nearby college, so most kids got contact with at least a few other walks of life through their classmates, but still, everyone's social frame of reference, mine included, was much smaller than, say, my own kids' would be--the only 'outsiders' we ever saw were ex-locals who'd moved to The Big City but came back occasionally to visit, and the occasional starry-eyed European roadtripper in search of the spirit of the blues (they generally wound up snapping a photo of the church where Robert Johnson was buried, asking a couple bewildered locals if there were any Ku Klux Klan 'sites' to see in the area, then getting out in a hurry). So yeah, poorly developed social skills, distracted parents with constant, pressing, dire financial concerns, crap schools with teachers who'd never known anything but the same--actually, worse, because they'd grown up under Jim Crow--and a lot of isolation and boredom despite continuous hard work. I kind of envy you having had the chance to break away 'only' to VT first, rather than being plunged into NYC baptism-by-fire style, but then again, maybe that too is just grass-is-greener thinking on my part.

Like you, I do value having learned to get by with little; I'm often aghast at all the things 'urban' working-class people will spend precious money on, and in an ironic way, I think that sensibility actually helped me to be adventurous as a traveler and student later. But I also doubt my life would've worked out that way had I not gotten out when I did...while I was still young and unattached to anything other than my immediate family. And maybe the 'nudge,' if I can call it that, of my folks having always been seen as outsiders of a kind anyway. The older you get, the more commitments you take on, the harder it is to venture into a radically different social and economic and cultural sphere and adapt--whether you want those opportunities or not. It's not that you can't be content continuing on with the same...having choices and opportunities does play a role in how happy you wind up, but only to a point. But it's certainly not a question of finding the one perfect place and community where everyone has the formula all worked out; you're not going to find that anywhere.

 

[Irvine511]

I think you turned out great.

and what i think makes JFG great, and what makes Memphis (who comes from exactly this kind of rural background) great, isn't so much this environment, but the desire and perserverence to get the hell out of said environment because they were dissatisfied.

that is character.

 

[diamond]

anger issues.


dbs

 

[yolland]

Dissatisfaction isn't anger...anger is what you get when you don't take the needed risks to break out of that dissatisfaction, and I saw a hell of a lot of that where I grew up too...there was way more alcoholism and domestic violence and teen pregancy than anywhere I've lived since, way way more. Not everyone was dissatisfied, hardship doesn't necessarily mean dissatisfaction, but best for those who are to take the risks and make the changes rather than spreading their misery around.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Something seems very familiar to me..

Nevermind

 

[A_Wanderer]

Why's that?
I think the kids in that family are spot on regarding the founders of our country:

Consider the testimonies of their belief in God, which evidence a conviction and deliberate acknowledgment that God's hand was in the events that brought about our independence.

George Washington: "The success, which has hitherto attended our united efforts, we owe to the gracious interposition of Heaven, and to that interposition let us gratefully ascribe the praise of victory, and the blessings of peace." (To the Executive of New Hampshire, November 3, 1789, Writings 30:453.)

Alexander Hamilton: "The Sacred Rights of mankind are not to be rummaged from among old parchments or musty records. They are written . . . by the Hand of Divinity itself." (An Essay, "The Farmer Refuted," 1775.) "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system, which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests."

Thomas Jefferson: "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time." (Rights of British America, 1774.)

John Adams: "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." (In God We Trust, p. 75.)

Benjamin Franklin: "The longer I live the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth. That God Governs in the Affairs of Men!--And if a Sparrow cannot fall to the Ground without his Notice, is it probable that an Empire can rise without his Aid?--We have been assured, . . . in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labour in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this;--and I also believe that without his concurring Aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than Builders of Babel." (Prayer during Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787.)

James Madison: "It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution." (Federalist Papers, no. 37.)

Samuel Adams: "Revelation assures us that 'Righteousness exalteth a Nation'--Communities are dealt with in this World by the wise and just Ruler of the Universe. He rewards or punishes them according to their general Character." (Letter to John Scollary, 1776.)

Charles Pinckney: "When the great work was done and published, I was . . . struck with amazement. Nothing less than that superintending hand of Providence, that so miraculously carried us through the war, . . . could have brought it about so complete, upon the whole." (P. L. Ford, ed., Essays on the Constitution,, 1892, p. 412.)

It was not just incidental, nor was it mere political platitude, that the name of God was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence four times and that our inspired national motto became "In God We Trust."

We are not to conclude from the foregoing expressions that they were Godless liberals of today.

dbs

Jefferson

Deistic polymaths of the enlightenment are not figureheads of religious conservatism.

 

[Bono's shades]

I tell you the truth, I was raised in the city with only 2 siblings and was expected to have a career. I hated the idea and always wished I had been raised in the country with a bunch of brothers and sisters and honestly that is how I would like to raise my kids if I get any.(but not 17!)

Unless your parents are ogres who threatened to disown you if you became a stay-at-home mom rather than getting some big corporate job, they were probably just looking out for your best interests. It never hurts to have an education and some job skills so you are able to support yourself if being a stay-at-home mom doesn't work out for whatever reason. That's just good common sense.

 

[snowbunny00774]

Instead of having to submit and be pregnant for 25% of your life?

Why this statement? - she chose to be pregnant that much. This was a woman who used the pill prior to discovering what she perceives to be her calling.

Can we list who is arguing which issue:

a)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear.

b)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear only because she is enlisting the help of the older kids to raise them.

c)Those who think the way these 17 kids are being raised is wrong. period.

d)Those who think the way these 17 kids are being raised is wrong because it is too insular.

e)17 kids are fine, but it would be better if they were more outside community oriented.

f)17 kids is a bit much, but the values this family espouse are still valid.

g) 17 kids are fine and the way they are being raised is okay too.

h) 17 kids are fine and the way they are being raised is okay too - but not for me and my partner (or future partner if you don't have one yet)

 

[diamond]

I choose #g.


dbs

 

[snowbunny00774]

I kinda thought you might


eta: actually I though you'd be an h)

 

[indra]

Why this statement? - she chose to be pregnant that much. This was a woman who used the pill prior to discovering what she perceives to be her calling.

Can we list who is arguing which issue:

a)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear.

b)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear only because she is enlisting the help of the older kids to raise them.

c)Those who think the way these 17 kids are being raised is wrong. period.

d)Those who think the way these 17 kids are being raised is wrong because it is too insular.

e)17 kids are fine, but it would be better if they were more outside community oriented.

f)17 kids is a bit much, but the values this family espouse are still valid.

g) 17 kids are fine and the way they are being raised is okay too.

h) 17 kids are fine and the way they are being raised is okay too - but not for me and my partner (or future partner if you don't have one yet)

What about:

i) eh, they can do what they want, but they should be aware the way they are raising their kids is no guarantee they will turn out any better than any other kids; and whew! I'm so fucking happy my parents only had three of us!

That's the one I'd pick.

 

[yolland]

Somewhere between e) and h)--I really don't feel I know enough about them to say e) for sure, but it certainly sounds that way. Regardless, I find the parents' deliberate marketing of their family as a spectacle grotesque, but hey that's "reality" TV for you.

 

[fly so high!]

Jefferson

Deistic polymaths of the enlightenment are not figureheads of religious conservatism.

For once A Wanderer i would just love to read one of your posts without consulting my Oxford!

 

[Golightly Grrl]

and what i think makes JFG great, and what makes Memphis (who comes from exactly this kind of rural background) great, isn't so much this environment, but the desire and perserverence to get the hell out of said environment because they were dissatisfied.

that is character.

So true!

I grew up in a small town west of Milwaukee. Growing up there was like dying of a thousand paper cuts. I felt cut off and isolated. I suffered from clinical depression because I thought I would never escape and my life would have no meaning. I was constantly bullied because I couldn't fit in. I grew up among people who spit up chewing tobacco into the drinking fountains. Teenage pregnancy was commonplace. One of my HS classmates did a pep rally skit in blackface! I graduated in 1985, not 1955.

Growing up there was extremely difficult if you were a minority, gay or just walked down a different path. To this day, I can recall having spit balls thrown in my hair or being called horrible names.

Fortunately, I got out when I was 18. I moved to Chicago and lived there for several years. Sure, I definitely struggled. My resume is filled with craptastic McJobs and huge failures. But I survived, and now I'm educated and I have a decent job. Is my life perfect? No. But at least I had the fucking guts to get out of a horrific situation. And it's only been in the last year or so that I given myself a big pat on the back for being such a risk taker.

On-topic: Michelle Duggar's hair is a crime!

 

[martha]

Why this statement? - she chose to be pregnant that much. This was a woman who used the pill prior to discovering what she perceives to be her calling.

I understand that this is what she says. And I may be completely wrong for suspecting something's wrong, but sometimes these women have other stories to tell when they're allowed to tell them without their husbands standing next to them.

And some of the defenses here in this thread haven't made much sense.

a)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear.

b)Those who think 17 kids are too many for a woman to bear only because she is enlisting the help of the older kids to raise them.

c)Those who think the way these 17 kids are being raised is wrong. period.

These would me my thoughts.

 

[Dreadsox]

All I know is I loved the changes in my wife while she was pregnant.

 

[Butterscotch]

I understand that this is what she says. And I may be completely wrong for suspecting something's wrong, but sometimes these women have other stories to tell when they're allowed to tell them without their husbands standing next to them.

So you're assuming all women who don't believe exactly as you do are being controlled by their husbands? That they must all think like you but they can't say it? Oh come on!