Confederate Flag

[BVS]

I didn't want the other thread to go off topic, so I wanted to create a separate thread for all flag discussion.

Thoughts?


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[BVS]

Apparently it was removed from the capital this morning.

It's been a long time coming.

Once again like a lot of discussions regarding race, this discussion has proven to bring out the hypocrisy in some. I actually have an outspoken person on my fbook page that has posted a dozen articles about this topic. He'll post one article about how the flag is not a symbol of racism, then 5 minutes later an article about the flag is actually a part of the Democratic Party and they are the racists. Then goes on a rant about how the progressive left will remove everything they hate about his culture and we should pray, then praises the removal since it was ordered by a republican.


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[Hewson]

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/general-...294326432.html

Wonder if Bubba Watson is gonna head over to Maaco.

[PhilsFan]

The traitor's flag.

[bono_212]

Wonderful news, even if it's only a small step.

[iron yuppie]

I'm not sure how to feel about all this debate over the Confederate flag. My gut instinct is that focusing on the flag is something of an empty or placatory gesture that distracts from much more serious issues involving race and class in this country.

On top of that, if we are going to apply the logic that a flag under which atrocities have been committed needs to be expunged from the public record, then the US flag, or the flag of essentially any other country or region on earth, would have to be in jeopardy as well.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I'm not sure how to feel about all this debate over the Confederate flag. My gut instinct is that focusing on the flag is something of an empty or placatory gesture that distracts from much more serious issues involving race and class in this country.

On top of that, if we are going to apply the logic that a flag under which atrocities have been committed needs to be expunged from the public record, then the US flag, or the flag of essentially any other country or region on earth, would have to be in jeopardy as well.

But I don't think it's so much that "atrocities happened under that flag", this flag is a symbol of a failed revolution that was fighting for the right to continue such atrocities.


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[bono_212]

Agreed with BVS. Like Peef said, traitor's flag.

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by BVS

But I don't think it's so much that "atrocities happened under that flag", this flag is a symbol of a failed revolution that was fighting for the right to continue such atrocities.

I think that's an oversimplification of the Civil War. There's this prevailing wisdom in the northern US at least that you can break it down to north = good; south = bad. History is never that tidy, nor was the Civil War exclusively about slavery, nor was the north some kind of paradise for African Americans. I don't think someone identifying with the Confederate flag automatically makes them a racist (though of course it is often symptomatic of racism) or of suspect loyalties to the union.

[deep]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

The traitor's flag.

The Patriots' flag, American history is fucked up.

That is if the the Founding fathers are patriots, the Confederates have more in common with them.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I think that's an oversimplification of the Civil War. There's this prevailing wisdom in the northern US at least that you can break it down to north = good; south = bad. History is never that tidy, nor was the Civil War exclusively about slavery, nor was the north some kind of paradise for African Americans. I don't think someone identifying with the Confederate flag automatically makes them a racist (though of course it is often symptomatic of racism) or of suspect loyalties to the union.

I agree with you on most counts, but slavery was THE priority of states rights that drove us to war.

Do I think all those that identify with the confederate flag are racists? No. Do I question their understanding of the flag? Yes.

In addition to its history, it's been adopted by racists organizations as one of its symbols. The swastika was not originally a symbol solely of the nazis, but history has overshadowed any previous meanings it's had.


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[nbelcik]

The "states rights" argument is bullshit when you consider that the South fought tooth and nail to get the North to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. The South was happy to use federal power when it benefitted slavery. Yes, the North was still pretty racist (most people at the time were racist) but the South solely fought for slavery. It's mentioned in almost all (and I only say almost all because I'm not sure if every state mentioned slavery in their secession manifestos) of the secession documents and many leaders of the Confederacy spoke out about how the war was about the right to own slaves. The Lost Cause narrative is a myth. The war was about slavery.


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[Irvine511]

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by BVS

In addition to its history, it's been adopted by racists organizations as one of its symbols. The swastika was not originally a symbol solely of the nazis, but history has overshadowed any previous meanings it's had.

I see your point. With these things, though, I think the meaning of such imagery is 50% historical and 50% personal interpretation. Regarding the swastika, I seem to recall a case, perhaps in the UK, where a Hindu group successfully fought against a proposed ban on it through the argument that Nazi imagery should not supercede the religious-cultural meaning the symbol had for them.

In any case, maybe the way to look at the issue of the Confederate Flag is: what effect does its presence have on someone of African-American heritage? I imagine it is disturbing. But, again by that logic, someone of Chinese descent might find the California state flag disturbing on account of the torture their ancestors faced while working in near-slave conditions on railroads and other projects.

[Irvine511]

it seems clear, though. it's the specific flag of a specific part of the United States that wanted secession from the union, and the result was a war that killed upwards of 600,000 Americans on their own soil. it's not a country, it's rooted in any religious symbolism like the swastika.

i take the point that most southerners have strong feelings, because unlike the rest of the United States, they actually know what it feels like to have spilled blood, and lost, on their own soil. the rest of the world has populations that still hate each other over things that happend 500 years ago, if not more. this is quite recent history, and i don't expect a land that was devastated to get over something so quickly. i can appreciate the fact that the flag does stand, for them, as as symbol of people who fought back against an invading army. politics melts away when you're defending your home.

that's why it belongs in a museum. i may never say this again, but i agree with Jeb Bush.

[PhilsFan]

The coward's banner.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I see your point. With these things, though, I think the meaning of such imagery is 50% historical and 50% personal interpretation. Regarding the swastika, I seem to recall a case, perhaps in the UK, where a Hindu group successfully fought against a proposed ban on it through the argument that Nazi imagery should not supercede the religious-cultural meaning the symbol had for them.

The swastika goes back thousands of years and is well documented as having holy meaning in both religious and secular literature throughout history.

Unless I missed something in a religious history class and the Stars and Bars was worshipped by a Native American tribe as a holy symbol, these two situations aren't remotely comparable.

[iron yuppie]

The history of the symbols doesn't matter because the nature of symbolism is to be fluid. What matters is the multiplicity of interpretations in the present. Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.

Somewhat agreed. What's interesting to note that in Germany, many supporters of far-right ideology have taken to use the Confederate flag in place of the swastika. Or so I've heard.

[nbelcik]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Banning or discouraging the Confederate flag does nothing to ease racism and racial tension in the south the same way that restricting the swastika in Europe has done little to nothing to obstruct Neo-Nazism and other far-right groups.

This isn't about ending racism. This is about ending government sponsored racism. That flag flying on the capital grounds in South Carolina sends a horrible message to the rest of the country and to the world. It represents a white supremacist regime and I'm glad it's coming down, even though it should've never been put up there during the 50s in the first place.


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