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Old 06-24-2015, 08:06 PM   #21
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Iyup, I feel like you're grasping at straws here to make a point. And I see what that point is, but wouldn't you agree that the standard practice is that the defeated in a war don't usually continue to fly their flags after the war's end?
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:15 PM   #22
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I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:32 PM   #23
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I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.

It's interesting that the people who claim to be the most patriotic fly the flag of a regime that rebelled against the U.S. to defend slavery.


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Old 06-24-2015, 09:11 PM   #24
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I know many southerners who feel as if the flag is about "heritage" as well as honoring the Civil War dead.

And I'm still unnerved when I see one of those in public -- saw one planted in the sand on South Padre Island a few years ago. I, a white male northern gay of a certain income and education, felt uncomfortable.
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Old 06-24-2015, 09:50 PM   #25
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I don't think that, in the year 2015, flying the Confederate flag or displaying it has anything whatsoever to do with loyalty or lack thereof to the United States government.
I don't really think that's the issue. The flag is not going to cause South Carolina to secede from the Union.

The issue is that by flying that flag in that spot, the government of South Carolina is honoring the values that the Confederacy stood for as exactly equal to the values of the other flags flying there. Those include (presumably) the flag of the United States as well as that of South Carolina (I dig the palmetto, btw).

At least that's how the military treats flags, and I'm pretty sure civilian protocol is very similar.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:02 PM   #26
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I don't really think that's the issue. The flag is not going to cause South Carolina to secede from the Union.

The issue is that by flying that flag in that spot, the government of South Carolina is honoring the values that the Confederacy stood for as exactly equal to the values of the other flags flying there. Those include (presumably) the flag of the United States as well as that of South Carolina (I dig the palmetto, btw).

At least that's how the military treats flags, and I'm pretty sure civilian protocol is very similar.
I get that, I do. I don't support the Confederate flag in any way, shape, or form. The only point I want to make here is that, if a state institution flying the Confederate Flag is akin to honoring a past blighted with racism, the same goes for the United States flag. We could point to any number of instances of state-sponsored racism from the US government: African-Americans, Native Americans, Irish, Japanese, Middle Easterners...the list goes on. So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:04 PM   #27
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But it's not just the racism factor, and that's the part I feel like you're ignoring.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:06 PM   #28
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So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.
You're not necessarily wrong here, but you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:23 PM   #29
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I get that, I do. I don't support the Confederate flag in any way, shape, or form. The only point I want to make here is that, if a state institution flying the Confederate Flag is akin to honoring a past blighted with racism, the same goes for the United States flag. We could point to any number of instances of state-sponsored racism from the US government: African-Americans, Native Americans, Irish, Japanese, Middle Easterners...the list goes on. So by the logic of censoring the Confederate flag on the basis of a racist past, the same could go for the US flag.

Yes, but the U.S. was founded on the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality for all, even though we didn't measure up to those ideals at the time and still don't. The Confederacy on the other hand was founded on the ideal of keeping black people in chains. That's the key difference.


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Old 06-24-2015, 10:54 PM   #30
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Yes, but the U.S. was founded on the ideals of liberty, justice, and equality for all, even though we didn't measure up to those ideals at the time and still don't. The Confederacy on the other hand was founded on the ideal of keeping black people in chains. That's the key difference.
We'll have to disagree here. The rhetoric of equality doesn't mean a damn thing in a society that went out of its way to disenfranchise well north of 50% of the population.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:55 PM   #31
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Confederate Flag

I think, for example, Europens know that their flags represent more than just colonialism. It's absolutely a part of their history, but it's not all their history.

White supremacy and treason is pretty much all the Confederacy's history. It is more analogous to Nazi Germany in that specific sense. I am not at all comparing the two except in the stated limited manner.

It's not all of Southern history. It's a complex, beguiling, enchanted and haunted region of the U.S. It's given us likely our best writers and arguably best cuisine. So I appreciate that many feel the flag represents not just 1861-1865.

But they're wrong. IMHO.
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:10 AM   #32
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The South is a beautiful place in a lot of ways, but that flag has got to go. It's not much in the big picture, but it's a baby step forward at least.
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:57 AM   #33
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Not really my place, but...

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My gut instinct is that focusing on the flag is something of an empty or placatory gesture that distracts from much more serious issues involving race and class in this country.
...I feel like this is a pretty worthy point.

Tony Abbott wants to recognise Indigenous Australians in our constitution. That's a great thing that all good people support. But if it happens under his leadership I'll be digusted if all of a sudden he's considered some sort of Aboriginal ally when really all it is is a placatory gesture (albeit one of huge importance) and then the myriad issues we have in this country with regards to Aboriginal identity and so on are forgotten about. It's an easy way for right-wing commentators to then say "see, Tony Abbott did something positive. He's not an arsehole". I would think that the Confederate flag being banned could lead to similar things? Right-wing commentators saying "this is good, we're not racist, we live in a post-racial society so let's all just get along (but hey you blacks you're still kinda inferior)"
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Old 06-25-2015, 01:35 AM   #34
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You might also find an ally here, iYup:

Killer Mike on Confederate Flag: "You Do Not Fly the Flag of Losers Over the Winners' Country" | News | Pitchfork
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:12 AM   #35
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Killer Mike on point

I agree with him that although i find it distasteful, you really shouldn't ban individuals from flying any flags in their own homes (yes, even Nazi flags - if you want to display a giant banner that says "I'm the worst kind of asshole" then you're entitled to do so but you also aren't protected from the consequences of said action), but it makes zero sense that it should be flying over a governmental building.
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Old 06-25-2015, 02:35 PM   #36
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I read an interesting argument/discussion on Twitter last night that talked about how to dismiss the flag "victory" as "not the real issue" discounts decades and decades of work and activism that many people put into trying to get the Confederate flag removed from general existence.

While it's true that it's just a symbol of the pervasive racism and isn't going to magically fix anything, it's still a huge deal to finally have some movement on it.
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:12 PM   #37
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Seriously agreed. I remember being a kid the last time this was a huge issue. One state, I don't remember which, ended up making the flag a tiny portion of their state flag instead of the whole thing and it was a huge deal. It has bugged me for most of my life that I haven't heard of much progress since. I guess I'm just glad to see there's some movement here again.

Now if only this whole $20 bill thing would get resolved
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:36 PM   #38
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i know this is a thread about the Confederate flag, but that's the problem.

it should be a thread about guns and how they are a threat to public safety.
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:43 PM   #39
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Anyone who gets bent out of shape about a piece of cloth -- any of them, for any reason -- is misplacing importance into symbolism.

Anyone who stomps on or burns a flag to make a point is just as much of an idiot as those who proudly wave as big of a flag as they can in their front yard.

Its just a piece of freaking cloth. With that being said, knowing that people actually do, for some stupid reason, but into symbolism... the flag probably had no place being there at all. Obnoxious shit, really.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:23 AM   #40
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Incredible. What a moment.

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