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Old 08-24-2009, 12:27 PM   #21
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There were 180 Americans on that flight.
Which leaves "x" number of non-Americans NOT telling Scotland how to run their affairs.

How many innocent Afghans/Iraqis have US forces killed ?

Iran Air Flight 655

Maybe we should get our own house in order first
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Old 08-24-2009, 01:05 PM   #22
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There were 180 Americans on that flight.
Sorry but in that case arrest the guy and give him a trial yourself. Convicted by a Scots court, it's completely 100% to do with us how we treat him. The US can continue executing the mentally handicap, juveniles and those without the money for adequate council in your 18th century barbaric "justice" system. Sort that crap out then you can start preaching about justice.

The Scots judicial review panel found sufficient evidence to support an appeal on the basis of a miscarriage of justice. His appeal was scheduled for this year, it was unlikely he would have survived to the conclusion of the appeal but his death would have not stopped the appeal. The appeal would have proved embarrassing to the UK government and the US (if it had any shame) as the evidence against him is a) circumstantial, b) tainted by documented involvement from the CIA and MI5 including multi-million payments to key witnesses and c) the whole deal with Libya surrounding his handing over with the provision that no one else in Libya be sought for the bombing was tantamount to handing over a patsy.

The guy was probably involved, but so Ghaddifi and his security apparatus, why should the guy be left to die at the Scottish taxpayers expense while we and the US shower Ghaddifi with money and legitimacy for access to Libya's Oil and Natural gas supplies? The morals of justice seem to fall on deaf ears when Oil gets involved. The guy will be dead within 3 months. I'm glad I don't have to pay for his healthcare and his accommodation.
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Old 08-24-2009, 02:47 PM   #23
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No, actually I think the president has said the right things about this particular situation.

Behind the scenes I hope he's showing his displeasure even more strongly.
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There were 180 Americans on that flight.


Where was your outrage when Bush,Condi Rice was coddling this terrorist?

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Bush Speaks With Gaddafi In Historic Phone Call


"Libya has taken important steps on the road to normalizing its relations with the international community, beginning with its renunciation in 2003 of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction," the statement said. "The United States will continue to work on the bilateral relationship with Libya, with the aim of establishing a dialogue that encompasses all subjects, including human rights reform and the fight against terrorism."

A senior White House official told the Reuters news agency that there was no record of any previous U.S. president speaking to Gaddafi, who seized power in a 1969 military coup. Rights groups say Gaddafi's reign has been marked by human rights abuses and restrictions on freedom of expression.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice plans to meet Tuesday with Gaddafi's son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, who will be in Washington on a private visit, officials said. In early September, after the settlement deal, Rice became the most senior U.S. official to visit Libya in more than a half century.

The developments capped a remarkable turnaround in U.S.-Libyan relations that hit a low in the 1980s but began to improve after Gaddafi -- whom President Ronald Reagan once famously called the "mad dog of the Middle East" -- renounced weapons of mass destruction and terrorism in 2003.
Bush Speaks With Libya's Gaddafi in Historic Phone Call - washingtonpost.com
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Old 08-24-2009, 03:52 PM   #24
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A good argument for capital punishment.
I disagree.

I can see why people are for the death penalty. But I don't believe the government should have the power to choose who lives and who dies. Also, being imprisoned for life is a worse punishment than death, IMO.

Anyways, back to the topic. I agree with BVS that he should have been moved to a facility to receive treatment, not set free.
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Old 08-24-2009, 05:54 PM   #25
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The morals of justice seem to fall on deaf ears when Oil gets involved.
Amen.


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Old 08-24-2009, 06:28 PM   #26
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Personally, I'm in two minds about his release. As I said I'm glad I'm not paying for his accommodation and healthcare anymore, and I have doubts to how involved he actually was, although ultimately I do believe he was at least tangentially involved but was only a part of a larger chain who offered him up as a patsy. However the scenes in Libya on his arrival sickened me, and his release put pay to any real attempt at appeal which would have been the only way to a full public enquiry and political pressure which would open the UK governments sealed files on the bombing .

Those screaming about justice, really should take a look at some of the documentation about this case, it's not as simple as we got the guy and he should die in prison. At best the guy was a courier, albeit one who knew exactly what he was arranging to be delivered. The idea he was the mastermind behind the whole thing or was acting alone is far fetched, and at the end of the day if he was only a cog in the wheel, I don't see where all this fury is coming from.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:41 PM   #27
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I disagree.

I can see why people are for the death penalty. But I don't believe the government should have the power to choose who lives and who dies. Also, being imprisoned for life is a worse punishment than death, IMO.
Except of course when "life" becomes something other than "life."

Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
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Old 08-24-2009, 06:47 PM   #28
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Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.
So kill him so there will be no "hero's welcome"?

That's your point?

Really?
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:00 PM   #29
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So kill him so there will be no "hero's welcome"?

That's your point?

Really?
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at least
a) Smallest in magnitude or degree.
b) According to the lowest possible assessment
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:01 PM   #30
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I don't support taking life on "at least"...
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:19 PM   #31
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There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
I'm sure there wouldn't be for this guy either if he bombed his own Government's building

Failing miserably to see the McVey parallel I'm afraid.......
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:27 PM   #32
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I'm sure there wouldn't be for this guy either if he bombed his own Government's building

Failing miserably to see the McVey parallel I'm afraid.......
He's saying that because McVeigh was put to death, there's no chance of a hero's welcome.
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Old 08-24-2009, 07:30 PM   #33
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He's saying that because McVeigh was put to death, there's no chance of a hero's welcome.
yeah.......but you could have said that about anyone who had been executed, why McVey ? Who would be giving him a hero's welcome ? And is that being proposed as the basis for deciding when to take a life ? "this guy might get a hero's welcome when he gets out, kill him"
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Old 08-24-2009, 11:05 PM   #34
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Except of course when "life" becomes something other than "life."

Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
Did you read where I said that I didn't think he should have been released?

And yes, I agree that a hero's welcome for a convicted terrorist is disgusting. But that doesn't make me want to support the death penalty.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:18 AM   #35
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Except of course when "life" becomes something other than "life."

Whether you agree or disagree that the death penalty has the advantages of being a deterrent and equal justice to the crime; you must admit that at least it prevents this type of B.S.

There'll never be a hero's "welcome home" for Timothy Mcvey.
The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't. There are a couple of arguments supporting capital punishment but the deterrent argument has always been a fallacy. If the threat of spending the rest or majority of the rest of your life in Prison isn't enough, spending 20 years on Death row then dying isn't exactly a major threat either. The numbers do not support capital punishment as a deterrent.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:38 AM   #36
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The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't. There are a couple of arguments supporting capital punishment but the deterrent argument has always been a fallacy. If the threat of spending the rest or majority of the rest of your life in Prison isn't enough, spending 20 years on Death row then dying isn't exactly a major threat either. The numbers do not support capital punishment as a deterrent.
Thank you for pointing that out.

Also, McVey wanted to be executed, which is exactly the reason he shouldn't have been. Let him rot in solitary.

When cost of appeals are factored in, it can be more expensive to execute someone that is to sentence them to life with no chance of parole.

These guys have some great research on the "fairness" of the U.S. judicial process:

The Sentencing Project Home


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Old 08-25-2009, 10:58 AM   #37
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The death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent. Homicide rates are roughly the same on average in US states which have capital punishment and those which don't.

actually, i'd say they're probably on average worse. i'm pretty sure Texas has a much higher murder rate than Massachusetts.

but the problem, of course, is not just that it isn't a deterrent at all, but the availability of guns.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:45 AM   #38
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By VICTOR EPSTEIN and SAMANTHA HENRY, Associated Press Writers – Mon Aug 24

ENGLEWOOD, N.J. – Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi will set foot on U.S. soil for the first time next month when he comes to address the U.N. General Assembly. Now he wants to put down stakes in the middle of American suburbia.

Plans to set up a tent and allow him to stay at a Libyan-owned estate in this upscale community 12 miles north of Manhattan, were attacked Monday by neighborhood residents and public officials, particularly after the hero's welcome extended by Libya last week to the lone man convicted in the 1988 bombing of Pan American Flight 103.

The attack over Lockerbie, Scotland, thought to be the work of Libyan intelligence, killed all 259 people on board the flight, including 33 from New Jersey. Abdel Baset al-Megrahi was freed from a life sentence in a Scottish jail and returned to Libya on compassionate grounds because he is dying of cancer.

"Gadhafi is a dangerous dictator whose hands are covered with the blood of Americans and our allies," said U.S. Rep. Steve Rothman, whose district includes Englewood. He promised there would be "hell to pay" if the U.S. State Department violates a long-standing deal barring the dictator from staying at the Libyan estate.

State department officials said no decision had been made on the issue.

Rothman was mayor of Englewood 26 years ago when the city learned the Libyan Mission to the United Nations had purchased the Palisade Avenue estate. He said local officials worked out a deal with the U.S. State Department limiting its use to the recreational activities by the ambassador and his family. The Libyans don't pay taxes on the estate, he said.

Gadhafi's U.N. appearance culminates a yearslong effort to rehabilitate the Libyan strongman's international image, which has included denouncing terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. He's ruled the oil rich North African kingdom since 1969.

"This is what happens when you have the path of appeasement," Susan Cohen, of Cape May Court House, New Jersey, said of the prospect of Gadhafi staying in Englewood. "He's getting everything he wants, and I guess that includes a trip to the state of New Jersey, which certainly doesn't need this."

Cohen's 20-year-old daughter died in the Scottish bombing.

Englewood is an upscale community of 28,000 residents that's located about 12 miles north of Manhattan. About 15 percent are Jewish, according to Rothman.

Shmuley Boteach, an orthodox Jewish rabbi, family counselor and star of the mainstream television series "Shalom in the Home," lives next door to the Libyan estate. He said the mansion has been renovated over the past three months with nearly 100 people working there.

He was initially supportive of the idea of Gadhafi coming to the U.S., but that changed after the release of al-Megrahi.

"I don't want him as a neighbor," said Boteach. "The events of the past few days have changed everything. Gadhafi has shown his true colors."

Bob Monetti of Cherry Hill, N.J., whose 20-year-old son died in the bombing, said allowing Gadhafi to stay in New Jersey would make it more difficult to live with what's happened.

"When he's in his tent in the desert in Libya he's a distant character that we can hate at arm's length, but when he comes to New Jersey, it just means he's on our home turf, and we don't want him on our home turf," he said.

In Washington, U.S. officials said Englewood was one option the Libyans were looking at to pitch the tent after their request to set it up New York's Central Park had been denied due to logistics and security concerns.

"We have been talking to the U.N. about this issue, we've been talking to the New York City authorities about the issue of where Mr. Gadhafi is going to stay, but no decisions have been made," State Department spokesman Ian Kelly said Monday. "No decision has been made about where anybody's going to pitch a tent."

Ahmed Gebreel, a spokesman for the Libyan Mission to the United Nations in Manhattan, did not return a reporter's phone call for this story.

However, Nicole DiCocco, spokeswoman for the Libyan Embassy in Washington, D.C., confirmed that the Libyan government owns the property in Englewood and it's a possible site for Gadhafi. She said that he would not live in the tent, but use it for entertainment purposes.

"We own the residence in Englewood, but it hasn't been confirmed that he'll be staying there," DiCocco said.

U.S. Sen Frank Lautenberg has asked the State Department to limit Gadhafi's travel in the U.S. to the U.N. headquarters district.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:50 AM   #39
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Should mercy be shown to him or should he have to die in prison?


No mercy. He should have been executed a long time ago.

Can you imagine being a family member of the kids that died in that plane? Just thing about that.
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Old 08-25-2009, 12:02 PM   #40
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No mercy. He should have been executed a long time ago.


Tough to do in a country with no death penalty.

Still, good to see that bloodlust is alive and well in a "Christian" country.





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Can you imagine being a family member of the kids that died in that plane? Just thing about that.
Some of the victims' families actually agreed with the release.
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