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Old 10-01-2010, 10:15 PM   #61
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He's said all sorts of appalling shit on his Twitter.

The man is a hateful cretin.
seriously. one internet trend i'm beyond tired of is posting insults like he did and then brushing them off as some huge joke. "fuck you, i hope you die." "hahaha you didn't know i was kidding? of course i was!" no, i think you're just trying to do damage control and failing badly. (ftr i'm not talking about sarcastic comments misread as being serious.)
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:56 AM   #62
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:05 AM   #63
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let's see, so, in addition to the super bizarre crush that Andrew Shirvell has on the gay student president of the University of Michigan, yet another gay kid has killed himself this week:

Steve Rothaus' Gay South Florida

we don't know much about this one yet, but we can add him to the list of gay kids who have killed themselves this week: Tyler Clementi, Billy Lucas, Seth Walsh, and Asher Brown.

BlogPost - Suicides of gay teenagers: Four dead in three weeks

don't think for a second that the actions of Maggie Gallagher of NOM, the Pope, and every asshole on the playground don't contribute to these deaths. there is blood on your hands. every time you protest against the basic equality of gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you try to cite whatever religious text to justify your discrimination, you have blood on your hands. every time you put forward and argument that argues that straight people are always and in all ways *better* than gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you vote for an anti-gay politician, you have blood on your hands. every time you go to church and you listen to anti-gay sermons and never say a word, you have blood on your hands.

i am so done with all of this. i will tear you to pieces if you dare pretend that there's some sort of question as to the basic dignity and basic rights of all gay people every where. the very lives of gay teenagers hang in the balance. it does get better.

http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterp.../3/rLUBVN14diw

i was never bullied in high school. i was a busy kid with academics and athletics on my mind, and i had a good group of friends. but tonight, as i was walking to a restaurant tonight from a bar to a restaurant with a big group of gay guys, someone threw eggs at us.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:26 AM   #64
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I am really sorry some jack ass kids threw eggs at you and your friends.

I think that type of crime deserves harsher punishment than what is probably on the books now.

I've had some of my properties egged before and I know how mad that made me. I don't have a lot of faith in many young people these days. In the beach area where I live there are a lot of obnoxious young people.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:30 AM   #65
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it could have been because we were a group of gay guys. it could have been because we were white (save for one of us, who is black). we could just have been the right people at the right time.

but my immediately conclusion was because we were gay.

we just kept walking.
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Old 10-02-2010, 02:13 AM   #66
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don't think for a second that the actions of Maggie Gallagher of NOM, the Pope, and every asshole on the playground don't contribute to these deaths. there is blood on your hands. every time you protest against the basic equality of gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you try to cite whatever religious text to justify your discrimination, you have blood on your hands. every time you put forward and argument that argues that straight people are always and in all ways *better* than gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you vote for an anti-gay politician, you have blood on your hands. every time you go to church and you listen to anti-gay sermons and never say a word, you have blood on your hands.

i am so done with all of this. i will tear you to pieces if you dare pretend that there's some sort of question as to the basic dignity and basic rights of all gay people every where. the very lives of gay teenagers hang in the balance.
I have to agree with this. Every last word.

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but tonight, as i was walking to a restaurant tonight from a bar to a restaurant with a big group of gay guys, someone threw eggs at us.
That sucks. Sorry about that.

I suppose I'll never get it. I'll never understand what makes people think doing stuff like that is okay. I'm sick to death of the stupidity, I'm sick to death of the immaturity. When the hell is society going to grow up?

Also sorry to hear about yet another suicide. My thoughts and condolances to all those who've lost loved ones in such a horrific manner. If anything good can come out of this, maybe it'll force society to be introduced to a thing called humanity.

Angela
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:03 AM   #67
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but tonight, as i was walking to a restaurant tonight from a bar to a restaurant with a big group of gay guys, someone threw eggs at us.
hhhhhrrrrrrmmm That shit makes me mad beyond belief
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:51 AM   #68
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it could have been because we were a group of gay guys. it could have been because we were white (save for one of us, who is black). we could just have been the right people at the right time.

but my immediately conclusion was because we were gay.

we just kept walking.

I am very sorry to hear of someone being so obnoxious towards you and your friends. Sadly, I think your conclusion is correct.

Gay bashing/bullying has got to stop. It isn't funny. It is a hate crime.

Thank you Got Philk for posting Ellen's message. It brought tears to my eyes and I'm sure, her's as well.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:07 AM   #69
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I have to agree with this. Every last word.



That sucks. Sorry about that.

I suppose I'll never get it. I'll never understand what makes people think doing stuff like that is okay. I'm sick to death of the stupidity, I'm sick to death of the immaturity. When the hell is society going to grow up?

Also sorry to hear about yet another suicide. My thoughts and condolances to all those who've lost loved ones in such a horrific manner. If anything good can come out of this, maybe it'll force society to be introduced to a thing called humanity.

Angela

Well said Angela!


I am so sick of it too. Young lives tragically ended and for what? These young people had so much ahead of them. Big friggin deal, if some folks are gay or lesbian. Time for society to grow up. Who you love and choose to spend your life with. Is your business.

Intolerance and hatred has no place in our world, not anymore. I think change can begin with each of us. Parents, grand parents, please teach your children to be thoughtful and kind towards all others. Everyone of us are "different" in some aspect and that's okay.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:46 AM   #70
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I found out about this story in my art class. This kid was saying how it's wrong to use the term "gay" in the derogatory term, especially towards a person that could possibly really be gay (which could basically be anyone). Then he told us the story. We were all apalled.

The worst part about it was, as our teacher pointed out, that these people who did this aren't in middle school or even high school anymore, and they're in college, meaning they're adults. You'd think they would be over that shit by now, but I guess not.

It's sad since how at my high school, there is this boy who is flamboyantly gay and wears outrageous makeup and clothes to school everyday, and no other boys have EVER acted homophobic towards him, at least to my knowledge, and if they did I think we would all know about it. Yet, this "grown up man" is engaging in this behavior?
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:42 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
let's see, so, in addition to the super bizarre crush that Andrew Shirvell has on the gay student president of the University of Michigan, yet another gay kid has killed himself this week:

Steve Rothaus' Gay South Florida

we don't know much about this one yet, but we can add him to the list of gay kids who have killed themselves this week: Tyler Clementi, Billy Lucas, Seth Walsh, and Asher Brown.

BlogPost - Suicides of gay teenagers: Four dead in three weeks

don't think for a second that the actions of Maggie Gallagher of NOM, the Pope, and every asshole on the playground don't contribute to these deaths. there is blood on your hands. every time you protest against the basic equality of gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you try to cite whatever religious text to justify your discrimination, you have blood on your hands. every time you put forward and argument that argues that straight people are always and in all ways *better* than gay people, you have blood on your hands. every time you vote for an anti-gay politician, you have blood on your hands. every time you go to church and you listen to anti-gay sermons and never say a word, you have blood on your hands.

i am so done with all of this. i will tear you to pieces if you dare pretend that there's some sort of question as to the basic dignity and basic rights of all gay people every where. the very lives of gay teenagers hang in the balance. it does get better.

http://www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterp.../3/rLUBVN14diw

i was never bullied in high school. i was a busy kid with academics and athletics on my mind, and i had a good group of friends. but tonight, as i was walking to a restaurant tonight from a bar to a restaurant with a big group of gay guys, someone threw eggs at us.
I'm sorry that someone threw eggs at you and your friends. However suggesting that anyone who argues against gay marriage has blood on their hands is verging into the Orwellian thought crime territory.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:44 PM   #72
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I don't really have anything new to add as it has all been said, much more eloquently, in previous posts . . . I guess I just want to join you all in expressing my disgust, my sadness and my distress at the absolute inhumanity that has been shown towards a fellow human being ~ regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, religious belief, whatever - no one deserves to be treated with such callous indifference and disrespect. . .

thoughts and prayers to all
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:42 PM   #73
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I'm sorry that someone threw eggs at you and your friends. However suggesting that anyone who argues against gay marriage has blood on their hands is verging into the Orwellian thought crime territory.


so, yeah, i was a bit hammered last night when i posted all that, but i stand by every word (except for the grammatical errors) and, yes, someone did throw eggs at us.

gay kids kill themselves because they feel that their lives have no worth as gay people -- that no matter what they do or how hard they try, all their good qualities are negated because they are gay, and the reason they feel this way is because we live in a world where there are many committed activists dedicated to denying fairly basic civil rights to gay people.

it's not so much that gay kids kill themselves because they cannot get married, it's because they live in a world where many people froth at the mouth at the idea of gays acting as if they aren't second-class individuals who deserve to, at the least, hang their heads in shame.

yes, people who actively work to deny gay people basic civil rights like marriage have blood on their hands.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:41 PM   #74
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Irvine, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on seemingly "harmless" comments like "that's so gay" or "you're being gay" are.

For me, personally, I despise those comments. I find them offensive, derogatory, and hurtful, and I always make a point of telling people that I do not tolerate those comments in my presence.
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:52 PM   #75
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Irvine, I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on seemingly "harmless" comments like "that's so gay" or "you're being gay" are.

For me, personally, I despise those comments. I find them offensive, derogatory, and hurtful, and I always make a point of telling people that I do not tolerate those comments in my presence.


i think context is everything, as well as knowing your audience. it's entirely possible to call something "gay" and mean it in the ironic, knowing, i-mean-to-sound-like-an-angry-5th-grader kind of way, and not the circa-2000 Eminem kind of way, and people will interpret it in the correct manner. words are very rarely ever totally fixed, and language can and should be elastic and malleable and endlessly reborn into new meanings based on new contexts.

however, in general discourse with polite-and-mixed company, absolutely not. it's a great way to make yourself look like an asshole, akin to calling something or someone "retarded," or worse.
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Old 10-03-2010, 02:25 AM   #76
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This is really strange. Did anyone else read this?

If this actually is Clementi making these posts, man, that really doesn't read like the words or thoughts of someone about to take his own life.

We all post on a message board, obviously, so we all know that the tone of our posts doesn't necessarily come anywhere close to what we're actually feeling, can be misconstrued, etc.

But, still. I can't help thinking that something else had to have happened after these posts were made, and before he jumped off the bridge.
I agree with you, something is just off about this whole thing which is why it might be smart to hold off on jumping to conclusions.

Like did his roommate really do this solely because he was gay? If Tyler was straight, and the roommate found out he belonged to a straight porn site/community (similar to justusboys.com) and sex webcam site (such as cam4.com) and was continually asking to have the room to himself to do things on webcam or have a girl over, would the roommate still have done the whole webcam "prank"? I could see where he might still do it, so I'm not 100% sure that it was just a homophobia thing.

Secondly, did Tyler really jump just because of the webcam incident? He seemed very rational in his posts on the message board. After discovering the webcam, he just unplugged it, looked for others, then still had a good time with his friend. If he was that distraught over it to where he wanted to kill himself, I have a hard time seeing how he would still go through with it, post about it on a message board, then talk to an RA the next day. What else happened after that? Maybe the guy dumped him and that's what really caused him to be depressed?

Whatever really did happen, the whole situation is tragic. I just don't think it's such a clear cut case that people are making it out to be.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:17 AM   #77
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I have been thinking about this a lot the past few days, and the one good thing I can see coming out of it is that there's something new in the air, there's the sense that this is the real beginning of a public war on homophobia. I can only hope.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:33 PM   #78
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I agree with you, something is just off about this whole thing which is why it might be smart to hold off on jumping to conclusions.

Like did his roommate really do this solely because he was gay? If Tyler was straight, and the roommate found out he belonged to a straight porn site/community (similar to justusboys.com) and sex webcam site (such as cam4.com) and was continually asking to have the room to himself to do things on webcam or have a girl over, would the roommate still have done the whole webcam "prank"? I could see where he might still do it, so I'm not 100% sure that it was just a homophobia thing.

Secondly, did Tyler really jump just because of the webcam incident? He seemed very rational in his posts on the message board. After discovering the webcam, he just unplugged it, looked for others, then still had a good time with his friend. If he was that distraught over it to where he wanted to kill himself, I have a hard time seeing how he would still go through with it, post about it on a message board, then talk to an RA the next day. What else happened after that? Maybe the guy dumped him and that's what really caused him to be depressed?

Whatever really did happen, the whole situation is tragic. I just don't think it's such a clear cut case that people are making it out to be.
That's what I was trying to get at in my previous post. He drove all the way to the GW Bridge to off himself solely because that video was posted? That seems quite a long distance for a decision made in a "haste." Even on a good day, new bru to nyc is at LEAST an hour commute by car.

It's tragic that he took his own life, but the circumstances seem pretty nebulous to me at the moment.
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Old 10-04-2010, 09:12 AM   #79
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I think people can seem very rational on a message board and still have many troubling things going on in their lives. Just like you still have to function at your job and in school or wherever-it's a necessary thing unless you just want to crawl under the covers and completely retreat. That's not always the case with depression and or suicidal thoughts, that it's obvious in every facet of your life or even obvious at all-that's one reason why, when suicide happens, that people around the person can have no idea what was going on in their lives or inside their heads. Sometimes people with so much turmoil going on inside their heads and hearts can still compartmentalize and seemingly function very well. That's one reason why the phrase "dying inside" exists.

Regardless of the reasons for Tyler's suicide what those two did, if that's what they did, is still despicable and it needs to stop.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:03 PM   #80
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Dan Savage says it better than i could in a response to this letter:


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I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and I heard your interview with Beth McDonald. I have been thinking about it a lot since then and I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bulling. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man that took his own life after being humiliated by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejuduces and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death "so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda."

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L. R.

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I'm sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I'm not. Gay kids are dying. So let's try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there's no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

Being told that they're sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they're not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle "savior" they've heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not "sinners." Real gay and lesbian children.

The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of "faithful Christians," and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches "faithful Christians" drag their kids to on Sundays, give your straight children a license to verbally abuse, humiliate and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your straight children—having listened to mom and dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to the family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry himself to sleep—feel justified in physically attacking the gay and lesbian children they encounter in their schools. You don't have to explicitly "encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate" gay kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It's here, it's clear, and we can see the fruits of it.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words.

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn't have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to—day-in, day-out, for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the images of the hateful and false "followers of Christ" they call "mom and dad."
SL Letter of the Day: Almost Sorry | Slog | The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper
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