Climategate Lies

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then you're lying to yourself, or you don't understand what is implied by Intelligent Design.

it was a theory put forward by the "Discovery Institute" in an attempt to graft some semblance of science onto Creationism.

Discovery Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Roy's beliefs

Faith-Based Evolution - TCS Daily

Intelligent design can be studied and taught without resorting to human creation traditions and beliefs, which in the West are usually traceable to the first book of the Bible, Genesis.

There's nothing in his beliefs that would make him fake satellite readings. There are scientists that believe in God and criticism of their science should be based on their science, not their metaphysical beliefs. Evolution is a theory (I happen to think is great) but like all theories there is some element of abstraction that will require more studies and fossil discoveries to add to it. It hasn't been proven but it's the best theory we have.

What's ironic is that Roy's studies are actually adding complexity to our understanding of climate as opposed to the AGW lobby that targets CO2 as the main climate driver.

Do I have to repost Al Gore talking about getting different religions to support AGW? Or how about this politically correct howler?

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ve-world-Charles-urges-environmentalists.html

'Follow the Islamic way to save the world,' Prince Charles urges environmentalists

By Rebecca English
Last updated at 1:46 AM on 10th June 2010

Prince Charles yesterday urged the world to follow Islamic 'spiritual principles' in order to protect the environment.

In an hour-long speech, the heir to the throne argued that man's destruction of the world was contrary to the scriptures of all religions - but particularly those of Islam.

He said the current 'division' between man and nature had been caused not just by industrialisation, but also by our attitude to the environment - which goes against the grain of 'sacred traditions'.

Outspoken: Prince Charles speaks to Islamic studies scholars at Oxford. He argued that man's destruction of the world was particularly contrary to Islam

Charles, who is a practising Christian and will become the head of the Church of England when he succeeds to the throne, spoke in depth about his own study of the Koran which, he said, tells its followers that there is 'no separation between man and nature' and says we must always live within our environment's limits.

The prince was speaking to an audience of scholars at the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies - which attempts to encourage a better understanding of the culture and civilisation of the religion.

His speech, merging religion with his other favourite subject, the environment, marked the 25th anniversary of the organisation, of which he is patron.

He added: 'The inconvenient truth is that we share this planet with the rest of creation for a very good reason - and that is, we cannot exist on our own without the intricately balanced web of life around us.

'Islam has always taught this and to ignore that lesson is to default on our contract with creation.'

http://www.cherwell.org/content/10533

HRH Prince Charles spoke at the Sheldonian Theatre on Wednesday, on ‘Islam and the Environment.'

His lecture focussed on what he described as the "division between humanity and nature", which is caused by "global industrialisation."

The lecture was organised by the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, of which the Prince is patron, to celebrate its 25th anniversary.

Prince Charles said that "the Islamic world is a custodian...a priceless gift to the rest of world." He made a plea to Islamic scholars, artists, teachers and engineers to fuse the spiritual and practical worlds, on the model of The Prince's School of Traditional Arts.

The Prince, whose income last year was just over £19 million, said "we are clearly living beyond our means."

He argued that the current economic and environmental crisis is the result of a deeper crisis of the soul.

"We need a recovery of the soul to the mainstream of our thinking. Only the sacred traditions have the capacity to do this", he said.

The Prince of Wales blamed a lack of belief in the soul for environmental problems, and said that the planet will not be able to sustain a population likely to rise to 9 billion in 40 years.

He said that it was "baffling" that so many scientists claimed to have faith in God, and yet science was till used in a "damaging" way to exploit the natural world.

Prince Charles even criticised the work of Galileo. Condemning the drive for profit behind scientific research, he said, "This imbalance, where mechanistic thinking is so predominant, goes back at least to Galileo's assertion that there is nothing in nature but quantity and motion."
 
I think there are some differences because you don't have to believe in the Bible's version of creation to believe in intelligent design. I don't agree with it but as long as Roy isn't talking to God to give him satellite data it's just a personal opinion for him. I don't think you HAVE to be a complete atheist to be a scientist. I'm sure there are scientists that have crappy bizarre political beliefs "Why Socialism? by Einstein". What matters is the method and work and of course review by skeptics to help advance science.
Have you actually read Why Socialism? It's not an evil essay and many of the points are relevant today.

As far as intelligent design goes it was created by the Discovery Institute to get around the legal rulings against Creation Science in the 1980's and is simply the old argument from design. It's important to note the major examples of "intelligent design" such as the bacterial flagellum and clotting cascades have subsequently been put into a testable evolutionary context. The fact your man Spencer subscribes to ID says that he doesn't understand what science is, and the same goes for your subsequent defenses.

Before you rant on this isn't a case of the Darwinian establishment dismissing radical new ideas; the argument from design significantly predates the origin and has failed to provide any testable hypothesis for the real world since. It's pure God (or alien) of the gaps business.
 
Evolution is a theory (I happen to think is great) but like all theories there is some element of abstraction that will require more studies and fossil discoveries to add to it. It hasn't been proven but it's the best theory we have.
Evolution is a scientific fact as well as a scientific theory, and your vacillating is interesting.
Random Prince Charles Crypto-Muslim Article
How is that relevant? Do you think I support Islamic principles of land management. I happen to think Prince Charles is a complete buffoon and his arguments are a complete slap in the face of most working scientists.
 

So where do you all get this new dictionary?

Is there some conservative convention where they hand out these new poorly written dictionaries?

There's definately a trait of poor defintions going on in here lately, we'll just add you to the list.

By your shit definition there is already a world government.
 
Have you actually read Why Socialism? It's not an evil essay and many of the points are relevant today.

In my mind it's dross, but my point is that what I think of his political ideas has nothing to do with his skill in physics so I don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

As far as intelligent design goes it was created by the Discovery Institute to get around the legal rulings against Creation Science in the 1980's and is simply the old argument from design. It's important to note the major examples of "intelligent design" such as the bacterial flagellum and clotting cascades have subsequently been put into a testable evolutionary context. The fact your man Spencer subscribes to ID says that he doesn't understand what science is, and the same goes for your subsequent defenses.

No it doesn't. He's a meterologist and his beliefs in a creator do not match with the Bible so I don't think it will interfere with satellite data. You're just trying to attack him personally instead of dealing with the data he's collecting. Even NASA doesn't throw him under the bus like you do.

Roy W. Spencer received his Ph.D. in meteorology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1981. Before becoming a Principal Research Scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville in 2001, he was a Senior Scientist for Climate Studies at NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center, where he and Dr. John Christy received NASA’s Exceptional Scientific Achievement Medal for their global temperature monitoring work with satellites. Dr. Spencer’s work with NASA continues as the U.S. Science Team leader for the Advanced Microwave Scanning Radiometer flying on NASA’s Aqua satellite. He has provided congressional testimony several times on the subject of global warming

Before you rant on this isn't a case of the Darwinian establishment dismissing radical new ideas; the argument from design significantly predates the origin and has failed to provide any testable hypothesis for the real world since. It's pure God (or alien) of the gaps business.

I'm not interested in arguing for a point of view I don't agree with. My point is that saying he supports a kind of intelligent design doesn't mean he can't be a good meteorologist. His data has nothing to do with intelligent design. Even more importantly if his data doesn't support AGW then that data has to be looked at as opposed to ignored.

Nice try to change the subject onto Some Religious guy vs. Richard Dawkins argument. We're talking about climategate. Calling him a creationist is just a way to dodge his arguments. At least with Michael Mann he has an objective to get rid of the medieval warming period and Steven McIntyre has proved him wrong not because of his station in life or his religious or political views but because he showed the computer models would make a hockey stick even if random data was added. As long as these problems persist and no "independent" review answers these questions no amount of personal attacks or flaunting resumes will matter.
 
So where do you all get this new dictionary?

Is there some conservative convention where they hand out these new poorly written dictionaries?

There's definately a trait of poor defintions going on in here lately, we'll just add you to the list.

By your shit definition there is already a world government.

When you have a binding agreement and world taxes and let's say the U.S. decides not to follow the agreement, all the other countries in a binding agreement can punish the U.S. with sanctions. This would be a world government. Every country would have to pay. Once you start something like that it will cause political turmoil to stop it. The fact that you're not concerned about that tells me what I need to know about you.
 
How is that relevant? Do you think I support Islamic principles of land management. I happen to think Prince Charles is a complete buffoon and his arguments are a complete slap in the face of most working scientists.

I was responding to Irvine showing that his distaste for the religious in science doesn't seem to match with Prince Charles criticizing religious scientists for not being thoughtful enough of the environment. So therefore it's not new that a scientist is religious or has religious views. There are probably religious scientists that believe in AGW and I'm sure the U.N. wouldn't care (unless they were skeptics). :wink:
 
I was responding to Irvine showing that his distaste for the religious in science doesn't seem to match with Prince Charles criticizing religious scientists for not being thoughtful enough of the environment.


which doesn't make any sense at all. why on earth would i care what PC thinks?
 
A certain population of Conservatives especially the further right you go care very much about what their Becks, Rushs, Hannitys think or say, so in turn they believe everyone is like that.

It's just not so :shrug:
 
which doesn't make any sense at all. why on earth would i care what PC thinks?

It's not what he thinks but the fact that he is amazed that scientists who are religious don't agree enough with him proving scientists can be religious and they do exist. Attacking someone's personal religious beliefs only works if you can prove that the scientist's work is informed by it instead of data.

A certain population of Conservatives especially the further right you go care very much about what their Becks, Rushs, Hannitys think or say, so in turn they believe everyone is like that.

It's just not so :shrug:

The problem is that people like you say that but then support policies that confirm conservatives worst nightmares.

And we all knew everything we need to know about you in the first month you signed up and started labeling EVERYTHING socialist or communist.

And that was before you even entered FYM :lol:

Well when looking at the political chart thread it would be mostly socialist in this forum.
 
It's not what he thinks but the fact that he is amazed that scientists who are religious don't agree enough with him proving scientists can be religious and they do exist.

i still don't care what PC thinks. :shrug:


Attacking someone's personal religious beliefs only works if you can prove that the scientist's work is informed by it instead of data.


and if someone advocates for Intelligent Design, it's incredibly clear that his work has been tainted by his religious beliefs.
 
and if someone advocates for Intelligent Design, it's incredibly clear that his work has been tainted by his religious beliefs.

At least when I say someone is tainted it's because the data shows that. I don't believe that Vikings buried their dead in "Greenland" under permafrost so I don't think arguments that the warming from the little ice age to now is unprecedented are proven. If an intelligent design person can make that argument it isn't tainted because he believes in a creator.

The Fate of Greenland's Vikings

Greenland's climate began to change as well; the summers grew shorter and progressively cooler, limiting the time cattle could be kept outdoors and increasing the need for winter fodder. During the worst years, when rains would have been heaviest, the hay crop would barely have been adequate to see the penned animals through the coldest days. Over the decades the drop in temperature seems to have had an effect on the design of the Greenlanders' houses. Originally conceived as single-roomed structures, like the great hall at Brattahlid, they were divided into smaller spaces for warmth, and then into warrens of interconnected chambers, with the cows kept close by so the owners might benefit from the animals' body heat.
 
The problem is that people like you say that but then support policies that confirm conservatives worst nightmares.
Incorrect dictionaries, simpleton/junk science, and conspiracy theories... I can imagine you all have some funny nightmares.

Well when looking at the political chart thread it would be mostly socialist in this forum.

There's that broken dictionary again...:crack:
 
'Follow the Islamic way to save the world,' Prince Charles urges environmentalists

Nothing to see here. Just the one-day-to-be head of the Church of England (the official albeit shrinking official church of the state) ass kissing reaching out to the two vibrant religions in Europe, Islam and Climate Change.

Our chief of NASA is doing the same.
 
Nothing to see here. Just the one-day-to-be head of the Church of England (the official albeit shrinking official church of the state) ass kissing reaching out to the two vibrant religions in Europe, Islam and Climate Change.

Our chief of NASA is doing the same.
FFS Do you think that somebody as antiscientific as Prince Charles has anything to do with a PR exercise by NASA?
 
FFS Do you think that somebody as antiscientific as Prince Charles has anything to do with a PR exercise by NASA?

Sure when he meets scientists where do you think he got his ideas? He's even teaching his mother to talk about it. James Hansen was one of the biggest propagandists to everyone.
 
What? The data behind intelligent design is clearly tainted by religious belief.

AW's post pretty much nails your use of science, at least in this thread.

First your link "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator" isn't working and second you don't read my posts because I've already proved a medieval warming period. I don't believe in intelligent design and I already proved that Roy Spencer makes more sense on the AGW topic than Michael Mann by showing a historical link of natural warmer temperatures during the time of the Vikings. Most scientists who are skeptics aren't intelligent design types anyways. Do you really think these "investigations" have somehow ended the argument on AGW? If you do you're dreaming.
 
Sure when he meets scientists where do you think he got his ideas? He's even teaching his mother to talk about it. James Hansen was one of the biggest propagandists to everyone.
Prince Charles is a buffoon and dangling him around as an example of who rational people trust is a complete non-starter. You complain of persecution if I question the credibility of an intelligent design supporting scientist but jump to label legitimate experts such as Hansen as propagandists.

Can you not see the absurdity of your position?
 
Mann acknowledged warming in the North Atlantic
lobal temperatures are known to have varied over the past 1500 years, but the spatial patterns have remained poorly defined. We used a global climate proxy network to reconstruct surface temperature patterns over this interval. The Medieval period is found to display warmth that matches or exceeds that of the past decade in some regions, but which falls well below recent levels globally. This period is marked by a tendency for La Niña–like conditions in the tropical Pacific. The coldest temperatures of the Little Ice Age are observed over the interval 1400 to 1700 C.E., with greatest cooling over the extratropical Northern Hemisphere continents. The patterns of temperature change imply dynamical responses of climate to natural radiative forcing changes involving El Niño and the North Atlantic Oscillation–Arctic Oscillation.
http://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/shared/articles/MannetalScience09.pdf

That's an article published in Science, and I want to see the evidence of impropriety that you so frequently allude to.

Like your claims about the 1930's being the hottest period on record are justified by focusing on the American data set and ignoring the rest of the world the warming in some regions is offset by cooler temperatures globally.
 
Sure when he meets scientists where do you think he got his ideas? He's even teaching his mother to talk about it. James Hansen was one of the biggest propagandists to everyone.

Will you consider your source, it's Prince Charles. Just step back a little and think about how disconnected with reality, science or anything else real he is. No one in here gives a shit about what he says, it doesn't matter if he stands on the right side or not. You may agree with Ann Coulter but are you really going to use her as a source? If no one is using him as a source you look like a fool still bringing his name up.

I've already proved a medieval warming period. I don't believe in intelligent design and I already proved that Roy Spencer makes more sense on the AGW topic than Michael Mann by showing a historical link of natural warmer temperatures during the time of the Vikings.

Oh, you've "proved" this?

These statements alone make it clear you just don't understand anything about the scientific process.
 
Prince Charles is a buffoon and dangling him around as an example of who rational people trust is a complete non-starter. You complain of persecution if I question the credibility of an intelligent design supporting scientist but jump to label legitimate experts such as Hansen as propagandists.

Can you not see the absurdity of your position?

Hansen is a legitimate expert? He's the guy that predicted New York would be underwater by 2000. :doh: He thinks shutting down coal is a good solution. Obviously he's a propagandist. Roy Spencer is simply skeptical of IPCC claims like many who aren't intelligent design proponents.

Oh, you've "proved" this?

These statements alone make it clear you just don't understand anything about the scientific process.

Do you believe that Vikings farmed in colder temperatures than now?

Mann acknowledged warming in the North Atlantichttp://www.meteo.psu.edu/~mann/shared/articles/MannetalScience09.pdf

That's an article published in Science, and I want to see the evidence of impropriety that you so frequently allude to.

Like your claims about the 1930's being the hottest period on record are justified by focusing on the American data set and ignoring the rest of the world the warming in some regions is offset by cooler temperatures globally.

I don't think the debate is over when it comes to a worldwide medieval warming period:

Medieval Warm Period

Globe-1250x765-mit-Graphen-und-Linien-JPEG1.jpg


And here's a carbon tax believer on the Climategate "Investigation" Whitewash:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/07/climategate-and-the-big-green-lie/59709

Climategate and the Big Green Lie
Jul 14 2010, 12:13 AM ET |

By way of preamble, let me remind you where I stand on climate change. I think climate science points to a risk that the world needs to take seriously. I think energy policy should be intelligently directed towards mitigating this risk. I am for a carbon tax. I also believe that the Climategate emails revealed, to an extent that surprised even me (and I am difficult to surprise), an ethos of suffocating groupthink and intellectual corruption. The scandal attracted enormous attention in the US, and support for a new energy policy has fallen. In sum, the scientists concerned brought their own discipline into disrepute, and set back the prospects for a better energy policy.

I had hoped, not very confidently, that the various Climategate inquiries would be severe. This would have been a first step towards restoring confidence in the scientific consensus. But no, the reports make things worse. At best they are mealy-mouthed apologies; at worst they are patently incompetent and even wilfully wrong. The climate-science establishment, of which these inquiries have chosen to make themselves a part, seems entirely incapable of understanding, let alone repairing, the harm it has done to its own cause.

The Penn State inquiry exonerating Michael Mann -- the paleoclimatologist who came up with "the hockey stick" -- would be difficult to parody. Three of four allegations are dismissed out of hand at the outset: the inquiry announces that, for "lack of credible evidence", it will not even investigate them. (At this, MIT's Richard Lindzen tells the committee, "It's thoroughly amazing. I mean these issues are explicitly stated in the emails. I'm wondering what's going on?" The report continues: "The Investigatory Committee did not respond to Dr Lindzen's statement. Instead, [his] attention was directed to the fourth allegation.") Moving on, the report then says, in effect, that Mann is a distinguished scholar, a successful raiser of research funding, a man admired by his peers -- so any allegation of academic impropriety must be false.

You think I exaggerate?

This level of success in proposing research, and obtaining funding to conduct it, clearly places Dr. Mann among the most respected scientists in his field. Such success would not have been possible had he not met or exceeded the highest standards of his profession for proposing research...

Had Dr. Mann's conduct of his research been outside the range of accepted practices, it would have been impossible for him to receive so many awards and recognitions, which typically involve intense scrutiny from scientists who may or may not agree with his scientific conclusions...

Clearly, Dr. Mann's reporting of his research has been successful and judged to be outstanding by his peers. This would have been impossible had his activities in reporting his work been outside of accepted practices in his field.

In short, the case for the prosecution is never heard. Mann is asked if the allegations (well, one of them) are true, and says no. His record is swooned over. Verdict: case dismissed, with apologies that Mann has been put to such trouble.

Further "vindication" of the Climategate emailers was to follow, of course, in Muir Russell's equally probing investigation. To be fair, Russell manages to issue a criticism or two. He says the scientists were sometimes "misleading" -- but without meaning to be (a plea which, in the case of the "trick to hide the decline", is an insult to one's intelligence). On the apparent conspiracy to subvert peer review, it found that the "allegations cannot be upheld" -- but, as the impressively even-handed Fred Pearce of the Guardian notes, this was partly on the grounds that "the roles of CRU scientists and others could not be distinguished from those of colleagues. There was 'team responsibility'." Edward Acton, vice-chancellor of the university which houses CRU, calls this "exoneration".

I am glad to see The Economist, which I criticized for making light of the initial scandal, taking a balanced view of these unsatisfactory proceedings. My only quarrels with its report are quibbles. For instance, in the second paragraph it says:

The reports conclude that the science of climate is sound...

Actually, they don't, as the article's last paragraph makes clear:

An earlier report on climategate from the House of Commons assumed that a subsequent probe by a panel under Lord Oxburgh, a former academic and chairman of Shell, would deal with the science. The Oxburgh report, though, sought to show only that the science was not fraudulent or systematically flawed, not that it was actually reliable. And nor did Sir Muir, with this third report, think judging the science was his job.

Like Pearce, The Economist rightly draws attention to the failure of the Russell inquiry to ask Phil Jones of the CRU whether he actually deleted any emails to defeat FoI requests. It calls this omission "rather remarkable". Pearce calls it "extraordinary". Myself, I would prefer to call it "astonishing and indefensible". I don't see how, having spotted this, the magazine can conclude that the report, overall, was "thorough, but it will not satisfy all the critics." (Well, the critics make such unreasonable demands! Look into the charges, they say. Hear from the other side. Ask the obvious questions. It never stops: you just can't satisfy these people.)

However, The Economist is calling for the IPCC's Rajendra Pachauri to go. That's good.

So where does this leave us? Walter Russell Mead is always worth reading on this subject, and I usually agree with him -- but I think his summing up in this case is not quite right.

Greens who feared and climate skeptics who hoped that the rash of investigations following Climategate and Glaciergate and all the other problems would reveal some gaping obvious flaws in the science of climate change were watching the wrong thing. The Big Green Lie (or Delusion, to be charitable) isn't so much that climate change is happening and that it is very likely caused or at least exacerbated by human activity. The Big Lie is that the green movement is a source of coherent or responsible counsel about what to do.

He's right, of course, that the green movement is not trusted as an adviser on what to do. So what? Its counsel on policy is not required. Nor, for that matter, is a complex international treaty of the sort that Copenhagen failed to produce. Congress and the administration can get to the right policy -- an explicit or implicit carbon tax; subsidies for low-carbon energy -- without the greens' input, so long as public opinion is convinced that the problem is real and needs to be addressed. It's not the extreme or otherwise ill-advised policy recommendations of the greens that have turned opinion against action of any kind, though I grant you they're no help. It's the diminished credibility of the claim that we have a problem in the first place. That is why Climategate mattered. And that is why these absurd "vindications" of the climate scientists involved also matter.

The economic burdens of mitigating climate change will not be shouldered until a sufficient number of voters believe the problem is real, serious, and pressing. Restoring confidence in climate science has to come first. That, in turn, means trusting voters with all of the doubts and unanswered questions -- with inconvenient data as well as data that confirm the story -- instead of misleading them (unintentionally, of course) into believing that everything is cut and dried. The inquiries could have started that process. They have further delayed it.
 
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