Chris Lane's Murder

[AEON]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

Only white people are racist.......

I think those days are finally ending and we can get to the real root cause of these problems - even if there are some btter pills to swallow - and actually develop some plans to solve them.

[maycocksean]

It appears to me that there is some confusion about what the issue was with the Martin/Zimmerman case.

The reason so many people got upset about Zimmerman was not just because of what he did but the sense, that from the beginning, that he could act with impunity. This is the heart of the outcry over what happened, not that "OMG a white man killed a black kid!" Had he been arrested right away, even if in the end, charges were dropped I doubt this would have had the legs that it did. The anguished reaction in the black community was not that so much that we are under constant threat from "white violence" but from the sense that what was historically true might still be true today, that a white person can commit violence against a black person and expect to walk free. There is fear that this knowledge might embolden some people to do things they might not do otherwise, believing that there will be no consequences.

And so bringing up cases like this horrific shooting of Chris Lane misses the point. Unless it appears that these young thugs are going to walk free, there is no equivalence between this and Trayvon Martin.

BTW, as has been noted one of the three teens involved in Lane's shooting was white. He appears to be getting somewhat lighter treatment. Bail has been set for him but denied for the others etc. I guess he was just the driver of the car rather than the actual shooter so perhaps that's why (though there was only one shooter, the other two were egging him on). I feel the same about all three of them though as I did about Zimmerman. I hope they are found guilty and pay for their crimes. The main difference is unlike with Zimmerman, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen.

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

It took me a while to figure it out

It's a common belief that most black men are hung

[AEON]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

And so bringing up cases like this horrific shooting of Chris Lane misses the point. Unless it appears that these young thugs are going to walk free, there is no equivalence between this and Trayvon Martin.

I agree there is no real equivalence between these last two incidents and the Zimmerman case - but it does shed light on a very real problem with the "gangsta" culture (which is mostly black - but there are some other races that like to tap into it).

[cobl04]

Oh yay, the "hip-hop is the cause of violence" argument!

Originally Posted by deep

It's a common belief that most black men are hung

Hahahah.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by AEON

I'm still trying to find these statistics to see if they are real. If so - I think it's time it gets brought into the mainstream for some real discussion.



article

We in America are hamstrung by the history of race in our country. Even our fears have historical roots.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there is historical record of black men being killed with impunity during the days of segregation. It's that history that touched a nerve with so many in the black community when the Trayvon Martin/Zimmerman thing went down.

Likewise the fear of the black male, particularly his threat to white women, is another fear with deep historical roots. I can't really speak to the numbers in the article you cited, but it's very clear to me that the way the stats are used in this article is specifically touching on that historical, uniquely American fear.

As a black man when I read the snippet from your article I felt an instant sense of unease and discomfort, not least because historically the one fear has led many times to realization of the other fear.

When my wife (who is white) and I were dating and in the earlier years of our marriage, I used to get a little nervous driving through the deep south with her to visit my mom and family in Florida. We'd get occasionally dirty looks and hard stares. I don't worry about it as much now, and I feel like our culture is slowly changing. But those archetypical fears do persist to a degree. It's one of the things that I loved about living on the tropical island of Saipan for over a decade. We could forget about the racial ugliness unique to the United States and pretend it didn't exist.

[bigjohn2441]

Plenty of people (including on here) accused Zimmerman of racial profiling and being racist and all that. Now we have a reverse situation where a black kid that murdered a white person is tweeting "90% of all white people are nasty HATE THEM!" Where is all the outrage and sarcastic remarks about racism on here now?

Is president Obama going to make a statment on these 2 recent events? Maybe the ones that murdered Chris Lane and the WWII vet could've been his son too.

Can you say double standard?

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by AEON

I agree there is no real equivalence between these last two incidents and the Zimmerman case - but it does shed light on a very real problem with the "gangsta" culture (which is mostly black - but there are some other races that like to tap into it).

Oh there are a lot of problems with gangsta culture to be sure (which is distinct btw from hip-hop culture. . .I don't think many white people understand that). But except in rare news-making events like the Chris Lane tragedy the consequences of that culture aren't typically felt by worried white folks. Urban black communities bear the brunt of it.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

Plenty of people (including on here) accused Zimmerman of racial profiling and being racist and all that. Now we have a reverse situation where a black kid that murdered a white person is tweeting "90% of all white people are nasty HATE THEM!" Where are is all the outrage and sarcastic remarks about racism on here now?

Is president Obama going to make a statment on these 2 recent events? Maybe the ones that murdered Chris Lane and the WWII vet could've been his son too.

Can you say double standard?

Let me try it again:

It appears to me that there is some confusion about what the issue was with the Martin/Zimmerman case.

The reason so many people got upset about Zimmerman was not just because of what he did but the sense, that from the beginning, that he could act with impunity. This is the heart of the outcry over what happened, not that "OMG a white man killed a black kid!" Had he been arrested right away, even if in the end, charges were dropped I doubt this would have had the legs that it did. The anguished reaction in the black community was not that so much that we are under constant threat from "white violence" but from the sense that what was historically true might still be true today, that a white person can commit violence against a black person and expect to walk free. There is fear that this knowledge might embolden some people to do things they might not do otherwise, believing that there will be no consequences.

And so bringing up cases like this horrific shooting of Chris Lane misses the point. Unless it appears that these young thugs are going to walk free, there is no equivalence between this and Trayvon Martin.

BTW, as has been noted one of the three teens involved in Lane's shooting was white. He appears to be getting somewhat lighter treatment. Bail has been set for him but denied for the others etc. I guess he was just the driver of the car rather than the actual shooter so perhaps that's why (though there was only one shooter, the other two were egging him on). I feel the same about all three of them though as I did about Zimmerman. I hope they are found guilty and pay for their crimes. The main difference is unlike with Zimmerman, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen.

[bigjohn2441]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

I feel the same about all three of them though as I did about Zimmerman. .

I think there's a little difference between cold-blooded murder and self-defense don't you?

Originally Posted by maycocksean

Had he been arrested right away

I might add that he was only arrested after a while due to pressure created by the media. The same media that was caught reporting mis-information and editing the 911 tapes.

I haven't heard too much from the same media regarding these 2 killings though. And again, where is president Obama's statement on the Chris Lane killing, which is an international incident. He was pretty quick to jump on the Zimmerman case with the "could've been my son" statements, where is he on these?

Let me try it again. Double standard anyone?

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

You blame the guns?

Explain this:
Teen charged, second sought in beating death of WWII vet, 88, in Spokane, Wash. - U.S. News

And please explain why you ignore the following:

-The destruction of the famliy

-Children being raised without fathers

-Song lyrics that glorify violence

-The elevation of self as a god and pleasure as all

Guns make it all worse. These things exist in other countries.

Our wildly permissive gun laws don't.

Hence our drastically higher murder rate.

Ask yourself:

How many people were killed by handguns last year in Great Britain?

In France?

In Spain?

In Costa Rica?

In Japan?

It's the guns the guns the guns.

They turn thugs into killers. The gun itself is responsible.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

Funny how people on here were screaming for Zimmerman's head and crying RACISM RACISM, but now when the tables are turned (twice in a couple days) everyone here is dead silent.

Oh that's right, I forgot to put my liberal cap on. Only white people are racist.......

Fuck that.

If these kids are acquitted, maybe then you'll have a point.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

It appears to me that there is some confusion about what the issue was with the Martin/Zimmerman case.

The reason so many people got upset about Zimmerman was not just because of what he did but the sense, that from the beginning, that he could act with impunity. This is the heart of the outcry over what happened, not that "OMG a white man killed a black kid!" Had he been arrested right away, even if in the end, charges were dropped I doubt this would have had the legs that it did. The anguished reaction in the black community was not that so much that we are under constant threat from "white violence" but from the sense that what was historically true might still be true today, that a white person can commit violence against a black person and expect to walk free. There is fear that this knowledge might embolden some people to do things they might not do otherwise, believing that there will be no consequences.

And so bringing up cases like this horrific shooting of Chris Lane misses the point. Unless it appears that these young thugs are going to walk free, there is no equivalence between this and Trayvon Martin.

BTW, as has been noted one of the three teens involved in Lane's shooting was white. He appears to be getting somewhat lighter treatment. Bail has been set for him but denied for the others etc. I guess he was just the driver of the car rather than the actual shooter so perhaps that's why (though there was only one shooter, the other two were egging him on). I feel the same about all three of them though as I did about Zimmerman. I hope they are found guilty and pay for their crimes. The main difference is unlike with Zimmerman, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen.

Thank you for saying calmly what I would have said sarcastically.

[bigjohn2441]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Fuck that.

If these kids are acquitted, maybe then you'll have a point.

So I guess the implication is that Zimmerman did it "just for the fun of it" also?

[Irvine511]

Jesus. I can't. I can't even begin to respond in depth to this shit.

I'm just sorry. I get embarrassed to be white and to be an American sometimes

And I blame the guns.

[maycocksean]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

I think there's a little difference between cold-blooded murder and self-defense don't you?

Of course. In fact, I understand what Zimmerman did, even as I feel he should nevertheless be held to account for his actions. I can't fathom what these kids did. So it was inaccurate of me to say I feel the "same".

For the record, I've generally avoided imputing racism to Zimmerman's motives (at least of the conscious kind). My posts throughout the forum speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

I might add that he was only arrested after a while due to pressure created by the media. The same media that was caught reporting mis-information and editing the 911 tapes.


I haven't heard too much from the same media regarding these 2 killings though. And again, where is president Obama's statement on the Chris Lane killing, which is an international incident. He was pretty quick to jump on the Zimmerman case with the "could've been my son" statements, where is he on these?

Let me try it again. Double standard anyone?

It's interesting that you cherry picked two statements from my post that were tangential at best to my main point, and disregarded the main point all together.

It's clear, you've already made up your mind about what's going on here and I doubt that there's much I could do to change it. Carry on.

[bigjohn2441]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

. I get embarrassed to be white and to be an American sometimes

Well, you sure have your liberal cap on!

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

So I guess the implication is that Zimmerman did it "just for the fun of it" also?

These are radically different situations. If you go backs be, you know, read the Zimmerman thread, you'll find some nuanced discussion

But go ahead -- put word in my mouth and thoughts in my head. Little I can do about it and its the only way you can continue.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by bigjohn2441

Well, you sure have your liberal cap on!

And you have your ignorant cap on.

[bono_212]

Originally Posted by the iron horse

-Song lyrics that glorify violence

Because classical music is the bastion of peace and tranquility.