Can Egypt hold it together? President's son, family flee to Britain

[deep]

Angry Egyptian activist shouts at riot police outside the journalists' syndicate in downtown Cairo on Wednesday. (Ben Curtis/Associate Press)

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2011/0...o-mubarak.html

[deep]

Have we learned a little from our Iran experience.


Support a dictator that tolls the U S / Israeli agenda only to have the people in the street turn on him and drive him out?

[Earnie Shavers]

In general The Guardian has good coverage of this - between the extensive articles and columns you'll find most questions answered.

Egypt | World news | guardian.co.uk

And if you haven't heard this already, listen to the whole thing, amazing.

Egypt protests: 'People are being hauled out by police and beaten' - audio | World news | guardian.co.uk

[Mrs. Garrison]

Spent some time in Egypt back in 95, i remember being over there when OJ was acquitted and Rabin was assassinated. There were some tense moments with the latter of the two....

We even had a security detail accompany us downtown Alexandria to get some christmas lights.

The pyramids were fun, so was drinking Stella on a hotel balcony looking out at them.

[yolland]

For easy-access info, BBC might be even better than the Guardian; the coverage is reliably shallow, but it's also reliably broad, and well-designed for readers looking to quickly bring themselves up to speed. At times like this, I envy the legacy Britain's particular history has left its journalists--no matter where the news is happening, it seems they always have that ready reserve of well-connected, well-educated domestic and foreign expatriates to tap into.

The Muslim Brotherhood is by far the largest and best-organized opposition, so it's hard to see how any really major reshuffle wouldn't advantage them the most (of course, currently religious parties are banned, so they have to run as 'independents' and choose their priorities carefully). But pluralistic groups like the April 6 youth movement and Mohammed El Baradei's NAC have been more visible during these protests, and most eyewitnesses seem to think the very fact that no party's leading the charge is a major reason why tens of thousands of Egyptians from all walks of life have joined in to begin with. That much can't last; even when temporary alliances against a shared enemy succeed, everyone then has to back some agenda or another to move forward, and right now they agree on fairly little besides economic issues (high unemployment, low minimum wage, muzzling of unions etc.) and getting the state of emergency lifted.

I don't see this being another Tunisia, though; Mubarak's got the security forces in his pocket, he's a much savvier strongman than Ben Ali, especially at the divide-and-conquer game. But there will surely have to be some economic reforms, maybe some political ones as well (like, say, the state of emergency, or the competition-choking rules for electing the president).

[the iron horse]

Protests against Egyptian president spread | Reuters

[deep]

Mubarak's days are numbered, the best he can hope for is to try and contain this. He could hold on a few more months, at best a year or two more.

The police and army will only stay with him until they see this is too big to contain. Once 10-15 per cent peel off, the rest will follow.

A lot depends on today, if this gets squashed, I believe it is only a matter of time before it comes back, bigger.

A page on Facebook listed more than 30 mosques and churches where protesters were expected to gather.

"Egypt's Muslims and Christians will go out to fight against corruption, unemployment and oppression and absence of freedom," the page said, adding more than 70,000 had signed up online.

[deep]

mayyeuy wrote:

To all the people of world

The people in Egypt are under governmental siege. Mubarak regime is banning Facebook, Twitter, and all other popular internet sites. Tomorrow the government will block the 3 mobile phone network and the internet completely. And there is news that even the phone landline will be cut tomorrow, to prevent any news agency from following what will happen.

Suez city is already under siege now. The government cut the water supply and electricity, people, including, children and elderly are suffering there now. The patients in hospitals cannot get urgent medical care. The injured protestors are lying in the streets and the riot police are preventing people from helping them. The families of the killed protestors cannot get the bodies of their sons to bury them. This picture is the same in north Saini (El-Sheikh zoyad city) and in western Egypt (Al-salom). The riot police is cracking down on protestors in Ismailia, Alexandria, Fayoum, Shbin Elkoum, and Cairo, the capital, in many neighborhoods across the city.

The government is preparing to crackdown on the protestors in all Egyptian cities. They are using tear gas bombs, rubber and plastic pullets, chemicals like dilutes mustard gas against protestors. Several protestors today have been killed when the armored vehicles of the riot police hit them. Officials in plain clothes carrying blades and knives used to intimidate protestors.

All this has been taken place over the past three days during the peaceful demonstrations in Cairo and other cities. Now, with the suspicious silence of the local media and the lack of coverage from the international media, Mubarak and his gang are blocking all the channels that can tell the world about what is happening.

People who call for their freedom need your support and help. Will you give them a hand?

The activists are flooding the net (youtube and other sites) with thousands of pictures and videos showing the riot police firing on armless people. The police started to use ammunition against protestors. 15-year old girl has been injured and another 25 year old man has been shot in the mouth. While nothing of these has appeared in the media, there is more to happen tomorrow. Will you keep silent? Will you keep your mouth shut while seeing all these cruelty and inhumane actions?

We don’t ask for much, just broadcast what is happening

.

[deep]

NYT: Wikileaks cables reveal details of US-Egypt diplomacy -

[deep]

NewsHour host Jim Lehrer asked Biden if the time has "come for President Mubarak of Egypt to go?" Biden answered: "No. I think the time has come for President Mubarak to begin to move in the direction that – to be more responsive to some... of the needs of the people out there."

Asked if he would characterize Mubarak as a dictator Biden responded: “Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.”

He also appeared to make one of the famous Biden gaffes, in comments that could be interpreted as questioning the legitimacy of protesters' demands. Monitor Cairo correspondent Kristen Chick, other reporters in the country, and activists have generally characterized the main calls of demonstrators as focused on freedom, democracy, an end to police torture, and a more committed government effort to address the poverty that aflicts millions of Egyptians.

Biden urged non-violence from both protesters and the government and said: "We’re encouraging the protesters to – as they assemble, do it peacefully. And we’re encouraging the government to act responsibly and – and to try to engage in a discussion as to what the legitimate claims being made are, if they are, and try to work them out." He also said: "I think that what we should continue to do is to encourage reasonable... accommodation and discussion to try to resolve peacefully and amicably the concerns and claims made by those who have taken to the street. And those that are legitimate should be responded to because the economic well-being and the stability of Egypt rests upon that middle class buying into the future of Egypt."

Egypt's protesters, if they're paying attention to Biden at all, will certainly be wondering which of their demands thus far have been illegitimate.

Really Mr Biden??

Egypt has a population of 80 million people. The well being of those people is secondary to 5,000,000 in an adjacent country.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by deep

Really Mr Biden??

Egypt has a population of 80 million people. The well being of those people is secondary to 5,000,000 in an adjacent country.

A neighbouring country which is not an honest peace broker, as revealed so explicitly by the recently leaked Palestine Papers, which are of course, getting little traction in the US media.

Like I said, par for the course here.

[Bonoa]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

Bonoa -- you clearly know much more about Egypt than most of the regular posters in here. my question/concern -- if the government is overthrown, who will take their place? will democratic elections be held? is there concern that Islamists might be democratically elected? is that the change young Egyptians are looking for? something else?

sorry if i come off as grossly uninformed, that's probably because i am on this topic.

I'm an Egyptfreak an archaeologist and Egyptologist.

Mubarak was held in place by the west, tolerated because of his friendship with Israel and other Arab countries, to form a bridge between east and west.
The young Egyptians want democracy, I don't know who they had in mind, but opposition leader Mohamed el Baradei agrees to lead the country temporarily. He is a nobel peace prize winner and a leading nuclear scientist. He seems like a good solution for democratization of Egypt and to provide economic growth for the country. If he's true at heart democratic elections will be held. After the assassination of Sadat, Mubarak promised to have democratic elections as well, but he ended up like a pharaoh whose eldest son would be his successor. Under his rule the Emergency Law was maintained from 1981 until now...

I don't know about plot theories (Bilderberg et al. After all, El Baradei has a lot to do with the UN and as based in Geneva) but the other side of the story is that somehow El Baradeiwas put forward to be the new Egyptian leader, to function for a buffer against Iran and their nuclear program and to take away power from the extremist Muslim Brotherhood, who like to benefit from the mass revolution in the streets (the liberas youths do it for them).

As far as the Muslim Brotherhood is concerned, I know that most Egyptians think of them as 'veiled freaks' who don't belong to true Islam and rather crooss the street if they see one...

Originally Posted by Mrs. Garrison

Spent some time in Egypt back in 95, i remember being over there when OJ was acquitted and Rabin was assassinated. There were some tense moments with the latter of the two....

We even had a security detail accompany us downtown Alexandria to get some christmas lights.

The pyramids were fun, so was drinking Stella on a hotel balcony looking out at them.

I really have to go back to see Egypt again . I've been there for three months back in 2006 and I was planning to do an internship there soon at an excavation.
Yes, back then when we visited the eastern Delta (Avaris, Tell el-Dab'a) we had two trucks full of soldiers following us around 'for our safety'. We were with 10 people and I think they wanted to make sure we wouldn't steal things from excavation sites. During other trips we had a young soldier who traveled with us, a very cool guy. Of course we made a lot of political incorrect pics as we were allowed to pose with his Uzi.

Oh, yeah, Stella.... have you tried Saqqara beer, with Djosers Step pyramid on the label? One time we drank so much of it that the next day only the sight of the pyramid of Saqqara almost made us sick...

[Earnie Shavers]

Al Jazeera footage over the last couple of hours has been incredible.

[Canadiens1131]

It's pretty entertaining watching Washington trying to maintain the balancing act between pretending to be all about American Values n' Freedom n' Democracy while in fact hoping Egypt keeps its dictator in place so as to not negate all the foreign policy influence over there.

~

Young people in the Middle East (15--29 years old) constitute about one-third of the region's population (Brookings Institute). That, combined with internet access, has guaranteed future transformative change more than any U.S. meddling in the region could hope to.

[financeguy]

It's worrying how easily the government was able to shut down the internet.

Make no mistake, if any our 'liberal 'n' democratic' (TM) governments in the West found reason to do so, they would do the same. And the reason might be a few citizens getting uppity.

[corianderstem]

I just lost a couple of hours reading up on all this stuff, following link after link on various sites. I feel like I actually have at least a small grasp of the situation and the background now.

Huzzah for the internet.

Will definitely be keeping an eye on the reports in the coming days.

[Canadiens1131]

Originally Posted by financeguy

It's worrying how easily the government was able to shut down the internet.

Make no mistake, if any our 'liberal 'n' democratic' (TM) governments in the West found reason to do so, they would do the same. And the reason might be a few citizens getting uppity.

There's an "internet kill switch" bill floating around somewhere in the U.S. House of Reps right at this moment.

Considering ICANN is in Marina del Ray, CA, I'm surprised the rest of the world is not more uppity about this.

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by Canadiens1131

There's an "internet kill switch" bill floating around somewhere in the U.S. House of Reps right at this moment.

UGH. I had not heard about that.

Yippee.

[trojanchick99]

Mubarak has asked the government to resign. I doubt that this will lead to elections though.

[yolland]

Some slogans chanted by the protesters, via Cal State's As'ad AbuKhalil:


الهلال ويا الصليب بيقولوا لأ يا حبيب“The crescent and the cross say 'no,' [Interior Minister] Habib”
الهلال ويا الصليب ضد القتل والتعذيب“The crescent and the cross against murder and torture”
مسلمين مع مسيحيين كلنا طالبين التغيير“Muslims with Christians, we all demand change”
قولوا وردوا أنت وهي ...مصر هتفضل غاليه عليا“Say and repeat, you and she…Egypt will stay dear to me”
مصر حتفضل غاليه عليا رغم الخونه والحراميه“Egypt will stay dear to me, despite the traitors and the thieves”
ارحل ارحل ارحل غور خلِّي بلدنا تشوف النور“Leave, leave, leave, for good, let our country see the light”
ارحل ارحل يا عميل بعت بلادك لاسرائيل“Leave, leave, you traitor, you sold your country to Israel”
ارفع ارفع الهتاف شعبنا حر ومش هيخاف"Husni Mubarak died, died, and [Habib] is agent of the Mossad"
يا مبارك يا جبان, يا عميل الأميركان"O Mubarak, you coward, O agent of the Americans"
حسني مبارك, مات مات. والعدلي عميل الموساد“Raise, raise the call, our people are free and not afraid”
ياعيون العالم طُلي مصر لبست توبها التلُّي“Oh, eyes of the world behold, Egypt wore her tulle dress”
اضرب اضرب يا حبيب مهما تضرب مش هنسيب“Hit, hit, Habib, no matter how much you hit, we won’t let go”
مش عايزينه مش عايزينه ولا كلابه ولا زنانيه“I don’t want, I don’t want, neither his dogs nor his prisons”
اصحي يا مصر وفوقي م النوم نهبوا ولادك يوم ورا يوم“Wake up Egypt and become aware, they had deprived your sons of sleep day after day”
ثوره ثوره في كل مكان ضد الخونه والأندال“Revolution, revolution everywhere, against the traitors and the scoundrels”
ثوره ثوره يا مصريين لجل ما نخلص م الخاينين“Revolution, revolution, oh Egyptians, so that we can get rid of the traitors”
اهرب اهرب ياجمال انت وابوك والأندال“Escape, escape, Gamal, you and your father are scoundrels”
يا مبارك يا خرتيت ارحل ارحل يا غتيت“Oh Mubarak, you rhinoceros, leave, leave, you’re annoying”
علِّي الصوت علِّي كمان لجل ما يسمع كل جبان“Raise your voices even more, so that every coward hears”
حسني مبارك جلده تخين هو وعيلته مش سامعين“Husni Mubarak has thick skin, he and his family aren’t hearing”
ا مبارك ارحل غور أحسن بكره تموت مقتول“Oh Mubarak leave for good, or else tomorrow you’ll be killed”
يا مبارك, يا مبارك. الطيّارة في إنتظارك“O Mubarak, O Mubarak, the plane is waiting for you”
يا مبارك, يا مبارك. السعوديّة بإتنظارك“O Mubarak, O Mubarak, Saudi Arabia is waiting for you”
حسني مبارك يا بليد شعب مصر مش عبيد“Husni Mubarak, you lazy one, Egypt’s people are not slaves”
حسني مبارك يا جبله اطلع اطلع اطلع بره“Husni Mubarak, here’s the clarification, get out, get out, get out, outside”
حسني مبارك يا عميل بعت الغاز وفاضل النيل“Husni Mubarak, you agent, you sold the gas and [only] the Nile is left [to be sold]”
يا جمال يا غراب البين خد ابوك وروحوا لزين“Oh Gamal, you crow, we’re turning your father’s cheek, so you two leave to [Tunisia's deposed] Zayn”
شعبنا رافضه من سنين بس مبارك جلده تخين“Our people are refusing him, it’s been years, but Mubarak’s skin is thick”
علِّي علِّي علِّي الصوت النظام خايف موت“Raise, raise, raise the voice, the regime is scared to death”
التغيير التغيير ارحل ارحل يا حقير“Change, change, leave, leave, you contemptible [person]”
مش ماشيين قاعدين قاعدين حسني مبارك جلده تخين“We’re not leaving, we’re sitting, sitting, [because] Husni Mubarak has thick skin”
ارحل ارحل ياخسيس بره بره يا عجل يا تيس“Leave, leave, you despicable [person], outside, outside, you calf, you ass”
فاقد الحس والأهليه هو وابنه والوليَّه الخرتيت ابن الحراميه“They don’t have sensations or qualifications, he and his son and his wife, the rhinoceros, the son of thieves”
كل الشعب يقول وينادي حسني مبارك بره بلادي“All the people say and call: Husni Mubarak [get] outside his country”
يا حبيب يا حبيب حسني مبارك قتله قريب“Oh darling, oh darling, Husni Mubarak’s murder is near”
السرطان في كل مكان والغاز متباع بالمجان“The cancer is everywhere, and the gas is sold for free”
باعوا دمانا وباعوا كلاوينا وبنشحت احنا وأهالينا“They sold our blood, they sold our kidneys, and we beg, we and our families”
تسقط تسقط العصابه الزعيم ويا الديابه“Fall, fall, the gang, the boss, and the wolves”
الكرامه والحريه مطلب كل المصراويه“Dignity and freedom, is the demand of all Egyptians”
التحرير التحرير من حكم الرمه الخنزير“Liberation, liberation, from rule by the dregs, the pig”
التحرير التحرير من حكم عصابة التزوير“Liberation, liberation, from rule by the gang of fraud”
مصر بلدنا مش تكيه للهليبه والحراميه“Egypt, our country, is not a hospice for villains and thieves”
الشعب يريد إسقاط النظام“The people want the downfall of the regime”
شرطة مصر يا شرطة مصر انتو بقيتوا كلاب القصر“Police of Egypt, oh police of Egypt, you’ve become the dogs of the castle”
لأ لأ لأ يا جيش خليك بره واوعى تطيش حسني مبارك مش حيعي"“No, no, no, oh army, stay out and aware, don’t be reckless, Husni Mubarak will not live”