california dreaming - guardian 4.10.09

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by martha

As usual, I'm going to ask for a citation here. I know I won't get one, but I'll ask anyway.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[BVS]

You realize that's backwards, that's not how the real world operates? Right?

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The answer I was expecting. If you like to rely on made-up statistics, go right ahead. That works for conservatives all the time.


Today I asked my superintendent how many languages were spoken in our district. 73. Last time I checked, Spanish was only one language.

So, go ahead and make shit up. We're all on to you here.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by martha

The answer I was expecting. If you like to rely on made-up statistics, go right ahead. That works for conservatives all the time.


Today I asked my superintendent how many languages were spoken in our district. 73. Last time I checked, Spanish was only one language.

So, go ahead and make shit up. We're all on to you here.

What a coincidence, my superintendent is my source as well.

So prove me wrong. Expose me for the fraud you say I am. A teacher in California should have no problem with such a task.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by BVS

You realize that's backwards, that's not how the real world operates? Right?

But isn't it fun to slap somebody down when they leave themselves open?

Well here's your chance BVS. The worldwide web is at your fingertips.

[Se7en]

Originally Posted by INDY500

And looking into the crystal ball, two-thirds of California's kindergarten students are Hispanic, most unable to speak English with illiterate, poorly educated and unskilled parents.
So buena suerte with your 'What Makes A Society Thrive And Prosper' theories.

Originally Posted by martha

As usual, I'm going to ask for a citation here. I know I won't get one, but I'll ask anyway.

2008-09 Enrollment by Gender, Grade and Ethnic Designation

Kindergarten
Female - Hispanic or Latino 115,223 (51.8 %)
Male - Hispanic or Latino 121,911 (51.1 %)

so just over half of enrolled students are latino/hispanic.

Statewide Enrollment by Gender, Grade, and Ethnic Designation - DataQuest (CA Department of Education)

California English Language Development Test 2008-2009
Annual Assessment - Primary Language-Spanish
Kindergarten

Advanced 54 1.0%
Early Advanced 306 7.0%
Intermediate 1,136 24.0%
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%
Number Tested 4,637 100.0%

it's a small sample, but most can speak some level of english. i don't know how representative of the population this is, but given the positive skew i *assume* it's relatively accurate.

http://dq.cde.ca.gov/dataquest/CELDT...&cTestNumber=2

[INDY500]

Here is my source.
Catching Up to Mexico by Alex Alexiev on National Review / Digital

In 2005, the California K–12 school system was 48.5 percent Hispanic, compared with 30.9 percent white. By now it is above 50 percent Hispanic. Two-thirds of kindergarten students were Hispanic, most of them unable to speak English.

Maybe the author meant 2/3rds of Hispanic kindergarten students were unable to speak English, which would be about right.
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%

Thanks for the link seven. I stand corrected then. The correct % is just over half.

Anyway, it isn't really that the immigration population has changed dramatically in the past few generations. It's that our country has changed. We are no longer manufacturing and agricultural based. We are technology and information based and thus need an immigration policy that reflects those needs. Educated immigrants in other words. The continued uncontrolled illegal immigration of unskilled and uneducated workers will only continue to overstrain government services and budgets.

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

illiterate, poorly educated and unskilled parents.

Now work on this part.

Originally Posted by Se7en

2008-09 Enrollment by Gender, Grade and Ethnic Designation

Kindergarten
Female - Hispanic or Latino 115,223 (51.8 %)
Male - Hispanic or Latino 121,911 (51.1 %)

so just over half of enrolled students are latino/hispanic.

This data doesn't disaggregate into immigrant and US born, though. many Hispanic families have been here for generations.

Originally Posted by Se7en

California English Language Development Test 2008-2009
Annual Assessment - Primary Language-Spanish
Kindergarten

Advanced 54 1.0%
Early Advanced 306 7.0%
Intermediate 1,136 24.0%
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%
Number Tested 4,637 100.0%

it's a small sample, but most can speak some level of english. i don't know how representative of the population this is, but given the positive skew i *assume* it's relatively accurate.

That's the CELDT data for Spanish. What is it for Korean and Vietnamese? Or are those the favored minorities?

Originally Posted by INDY500

Here is my source.
Catching Up to Mexico by Alex Alexiev on National Review / Digital


Maybe the author meant 2/3rds of Hispanic kindergarten students were unable to speak English, which would be about right.
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%

Thanks for the link seven. I stand corrected then. The correct % is just over half.

While I'm terribly impressed that you actually have some sort of statistics and a resource to back up your claims, those figures don't really tell the whole story.

Originally Posted by INDY500

Anyway, it isn't really that the immigration population has changed dramatically in the past few generations. It's that our country has changed. We are no longer manufacturing and agricultural based. We are technology and information based and thus need an immigration policy that reflects those needs. Educated immigrants in other words. The continued uncontrolled illegal immigration of unskilled and uneducated workers will only continue to overstrain government services and budgets.

Then you start to change your tune, but NO! It's too hard. Must...go...back...to...blaming...illegal...immigrants.

It's all you've got.

[martha]

Originally Posted by INDY500

What a coincidence, my superintendent is my source as well..

Indiana= California. Everybody knows that! Sheesh. How stupid was I?

And my superintendent wasn't a "source" for anything except an interesting factoid.

[martha]

California's problem is a lot deeper than just those nasty Mexicans who do all our dirty work, endure the bullshit, and yet still find it a better place to live than their former country.

It's a ridiculous Constitutional requirement to pass a budget, and undemocratic term limits that get inexperienced legislators making short-sighted decisions. It's government by referenda, locking in spending rules without any real-life flexibility. It's a recall that threw out a really good governor in favor of a movie-star who really isn't bright enough or tactful enough, or enough of a real leader, to do a half-way decent job. It's a world-class economy caught in a world-class meltdown that involved fake money, more short-sighted decisions, and fucking GREED. It's a ridiculous limit on property taxes that has been a financial albatross for several decades now.

We had lots of illegal immigrants washing our dishes and cars when we were flush, and nobody seemed to care. We only care about the Mexican guys hanging around the Home Depot when times are tough. Then suddenly it's all their fault and they should just go home. And take those damn six-year-olds with them.


But leave the guys who pick the lettuce, please. Food prices are high enough already.

[Se7en]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Maybe the author meant 2/3rds of Hispanic kindergarten students were unable to speak English, which would be about right.
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%

no, i doubt it. it seems the author was simply wrong.

i'm not sure why you characterize bilingual five year olds speaking an intermediate level of english as "unable to speak english".

frankly, i'm impressed. i studied german for a year as a young adult and was barely at an advanced beginner level. can't speak a lick of it today, save a few words and phrases. scheisse!

Anyway, it isn't really that the immigration population has changed dramatically in the past few generations. It's that our country has changed. We are no longer manufacturing and agricultural based. We are technology and information based and thus need an immigration policy that reflects those needs. Educated immigrants in other words. The continued uncontrolled illegal immigration of unskilled and uneducated workers will only continue to overstrain government services and budgets.

and our economy is also increasingly service based. undocumented workers also fill these low wage positions in addition to agricultural labor. chances are that the last time you ate out an undocumented worker was in the kitchen. as long as there are jobs available they will continue to come. when the job market contracts they will leave: Global News Blog � Blog Archive � U.S. immigrant population dips in recession | Blogs |

there are plenty of highly skilled, highly educated immigrants in the u.s. on work or education visas. the universities are full of them.

[Se7en]

Originally Posted by martha

...That's the CELDT data for Spanish. What is it for Korean and Vietnamese? Or are those the favored minorities?

erm...indy made a statement about a spanish speaking population, so i looked up the data to see if his argument had any merit. i'll go ahead and assume those snarky questions weren't directed at me. either way, you can follow the link and find the info yourself if you're actually interested.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by INDY500

But isn't it fun to slap somebody down when they leave themselves open?

Well here's your chance BVS. The worldwide web is at your fingertips.

Ok, 75% of homeschoolers don't like cheese and pledge alligience to a plastic Jesus. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Your approach was backwards. If you make the statement you hold the burden of proof, not the other way around.

And now that you shared your source it turns out you're wrong.

[yolland]

Originally Posted by Se7en

and our economy is also increasingly service based. undocumented workers also fill these low wage positions in addition to agricultural labor. chances are that the last time you ate out an undocumented worker was in the kitchen. as long as there are jobs available they will continue to come. when the job market contracts they will leave:

This was my first reaction as well. I remember reading a couple years back, in the Wall Street Journal, that Hispanic Americans--this is including illegal immigrants--had the highest employment rate of any ethnic group. Yes, at the same time they're also among the least educated overall, hence their relative concentration in low-wage sectors (and financial vulnerability in times like the present), but to me that's first and foremost a comment on wage disparities and their public consequences. Someone's gotta wash the dishes, pick the lettuce, slaughter the cattle, stock the shelves, lay the bricks, fix the sewers...that's not gonna change. Are those who render us those services receiving enough in return for their children to have a meaningful shot at moving into these high-tech growth fields...assuming our education system has what it takes to prepare the next generation for that economic reality in the first place? Importing skilled workers is no sustainable substitute for producing them through your own resources.

[martha]

Originally Posted by Se7en

erm...indy made a statement about a spanish speaking population, so i looked up the data to see if his argument had any merit. i'll go ahead and assume those snarky questions weren't directed at me. either way, you can follow the link and find the info yourself if you're actually interested.

No, the snarky comment wasn't directed at you. And I appreciate you doing Indy's job and mine. Believe me, CELDT data runs my life.

[martha]

Originally Posted by BVS

Ok, 75% of homeschoolers don't like cheese and pledge alligience to a plastic Jesus. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

If you email this to me, does it make it true?

[martha]

Originally Posted by yolland

Someone's gotta wash the dishes, pick the lettuce, slaughter the cattle, stock the shelves, lay the bricks, fix the sewers...that's not gonna change.

Daily, my husband and I ask each other where California would be without Mexican guys. They are everywhere doing extremely useful jobs.

[anitram]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Maybe the author meant 2/3rds of Hispanic kindergarten students were unable to speak English, which would be about right.
Early Intermediate 1,604 35.0%
Beginning 1,537 33.0%

And these kids are all fluent by first or second grade. It's a very common thing among immigrant groups that kids enter kindergarten not speaking very much English at all since they've spent their entire lives at home. And they all do fine, many of them eventually outperforming the anglo kids. Take a look at the Asian population for an example of children who also have high proportions of no-English at the point of kindergarten entry and then follow them through on their path to Harvard. The inability to speak English at the age of 4 isn't really indicative of anything.

I spoke just passable English until I was 12, somehow magically I managed to do something productive with my immigrant ass anyway.

[BVS]

Originally Posted by martha

If you email this to me, does it make it true?

I'll add pictures just to make sure I cover my bases and so Diamond trust it.

[Tiger Edge]

Originally Posted by anitram

And these kids are all fluent by first or second grade. It's a very common thing among immigrant groups that kids enter kindergarten not speaking very much English at all since they've spent their entire lives at home. And they all do fine, many of them eventually outperforming the anglo kids. Take a look at the Asian population for an example of children who also have high proportions of no-English at the point of kindergarten entry and then follow them through on their path to Harvard. The inability to speak English at the age of 4 isn't really indicative of anything.

I spoke just passable English until I was 12, somehow magically I managed to do something productive with my immigrant ass anyway.

It's common practice among most Hispanic families in Miami to raise young children strictly on Spanish. A few of my friends are US born, have parents that prefer English to Spanish, but nonetheless attended their first years at school as non-English speakers. They're going to learn English anyway, so might as well teach them Spanish while they're young and have no outside interference (Hey, that's the name of this forum!).
That's how my brother and I were raised also, although our parents weren't as strict on the non-English rule.