Bullying - What Can Be Done?

[INDY500]

Students Walk Out on Dan Savage | CitizenLink

]A group of high school journalism students attending a conference called “Journalism on the Edge” in Seattle over the weekend felt they were pushed over the edge by syndicated sex advice columnist Dan Savage.

Savage, the creator of the two-year-old It Gets Better Project, which encourages teens struggling with same-sex attractions to embrace homosexuality, was invited to give a keynote address last Friday at the JEA/NSPA National High School Journalism Convention.

Students were expecting him to talk about bullying. But they also got an earful about birth control, sex, and Savage’s opinions on the Bible.

A 17-year-old from California who was attending with half a dozen other students from her high school yearbook staff, was one of several students to walk out in the middle of Savage’s speech.

“The first thing he told the audience was, ‘I hope you’re all using birth control!’ ” she recalled. Then “he said there are people using the Bible as an excuse for gay bullying, because it says in Leviticus and Romans that being gay is wrong. Right after that, he said we can ignore all the ‘B.S.’ in the Bible.

“I was thinking, ‘This is not going a good direction at all,’ Then he started going off about the Bible. He said somehow the Bible was pro-slavery. I’m really shy. I’m not really someone to, like, stir up anything. But all of a sudden I just blurted out, ‘That’s bull!’ ”

As she and several other students walked out of the auditorium, Savage noticed them leaving and called them “pansies.”

It get's better? Not like this.

It would be really nice if those preaching civility, tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and all that were a tad better at practicing what they preach.

What a creep.

[Irvine511]

Yep. It's the gays who are the real bullies. Thanks for pointing that out. Always remember that it's American Christians who are always the real victims.

Further, a phrase like "embrace homosexuality" reeks of FRC and NOM type language, so let's wait for actual news organizations to report on this before we put ourselves up on crosses.

It smells like a plant to me.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by INDY500

It would be really nice if those preaching civility, tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and all that were a tad better at practicing what they preach.

True, this hypocrisy is not exclusive to Christians.

[Irvine511]

as i suspected, the "wow, Dan Savage is SUCH a bully" is wrong.

regard what Savage actually said:

The Bible. We'll just talk about the Bible for a second. People often point out that they can't help it -- they can't help with the anti-gay bullying, because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong.

We can learn to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about gay people. The same way, the same way we have learned to ignore the bulls**t in the Bible about shellfish, about slavery, about dinner, about farming, about menstruation, about virginity, about masturbation. We ignore bulls**t in the Bible about all sorts of things. The Bible is a radically pro-slavery document. Slave owners waved Bibles over their heads during the Civil War and justified it. The shortest book in the New Testament is a letter from Paul to a Christian slave owner about owning his Christian slave. And Paul doesn't say "Christians don't own people." Paul talks about how Christians own people.

We ignore what the Bible says about slavery, because the Bible got slavery wrong. Tim -- uh, Sam Harris, in A Letter To A Christian Nation, points out that the Bible got the easiest moral question that humanity has ever faced wrong. Slavery. What're the odds that the Bible got something as complicated as human sexuality wrong? One hundred percent.

The Bible says that if your daughter's not a virgin on her wedding night -- if a woman isn't a virgin on her wedding night, she shall be dragged to her father's doorstep and stoned to death. Callista Gingrich lives. And there is no effort to amend state constitutions to make it legal to stone women to death on their wedding night if they're not virgins. At least not yet. We don't know where the GOP is going these days.

People are dying because people can't clear this one last hurdle. They can't get past this one last thing in the Bible about homosexuality.

Um, one other thing I wanna talk about is -- [chuckles] -- so, you can tell the Bible guys in the hall that they can come back now, because I'm done beating up the Bible. It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back.

I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. But. I have a right to defend myself. And to point out the hypocrisy of people who justify anti-gay bigotry by pointing to the Bible, and insisting we must live by the code of Leviticus on this one issue and no other.

here's a far less biased account of the event than the one by the right wing CitizenLink, even though it's from a right wing British tabloid:

His comments about the relationship between anti-gay bullying and the bible sparked a walkout of Christian teens at the National High School Journalist Conference in Seattle.
Mr Savage called the defectors 'pansy-assed' and would not back down from his comments.

'I thought this would be about anti-bullying,' Rick Tuttle, the journalism adviser for Sutter Union High School in California, told Fox News. 'It turned into a pointed attack on Christian beliefs.' Mr Savage's keynote address was presented in a large lecture hall for thousands of people. A video of the lecture shows students beginning to walk out after Mr Savage started talking about the 'bullsh*t in the bible about gay people.'

'People often say that they can’t help with the anti-gay bullying acts because it says right there in Leviticus, it says right there in Timothy, it says right there in Romans, that being gay is wrong,' Mr Savage said. 'We can learn to ignore the bullsh*t in the Bible and what it says about gay people.' He compared dogmatic acceptance of anti-gay teachings equivalent to adhering to verses about slavery and eating shellfish, two issues that have been reinterpreted in modern day.

Many people in the audience met his statements with applause, but some Christians did not appreciate Mr Savage's comparison and walked out.

'It became hostile,' he said. 'It felt hostile as we were sitting in the audience – especially towards Christians who espouse beliefs that he was literally taking on.'

Mr Savage recognized that his ideas were not going over well with the audience and addressed their concerns head on.

'The bible guys in the hall can come back now because I'm done beating up the bible,' he said.

'It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back.'

Mr Savage is renowned for his outspoken opinions on sexuality and anti-bullying.

'I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings...but I have a right to defend myself,' he said.
The executive director of the National Scholastic Press Association that sponsored the conference also defended Mr Savage.

'We appreciate the level of thoughtfulness and deliberation regarding Dan Savage’s keynote address,' the NSPA wrote to Fox News.

'Some audience members who felt hurt by his words and tone decided to leave in the middle of his speech, and to this, we want to make our point very clear: While as a journalist it’s important to be able to listen to speech that offends you, these students and advisers had simply reached their tolerance level for what they were willing to hear.'

Read more: It Gets Worse: Anti-Bullying speaker Dan Savage blasts Christian teens for ditching lecture | Mail Online

so, firstly, and as you've pointed out in here INDY when you're dispensing advice to other would-be journalists, sometimes we have to listen to things we don't necessarily agree with. Savage wasn't addressing a captive high school audience. he wasn't in anyone's classroom. i don't see why Christians are demanding special rights to never have to hear things they disagree with, and they special right to have their own prejudices become law or else it's discrimination against them.

that said, i think it was a mistake to use profanity, but what he said was absolutely true. there's a pick-and-choose attitude when it comes to Biblical "laws" and the choice to adhere to some and not others is absolutely indicative of nothing more than pure prejudice.

all that said, i think Savage would have been better off with a more inclusive message -- these were teenagers, and even religious teenagers are supportive of SSM and gay people in general. the generational divide is enormous on this issue, and while everything he said is correct, this probably wasn't the best time and place for it. much better to save this stuff -- and make no mistake, Savage is smart and incisive -- for the Maggie Gallaghers and Tony Perkins and the hate groups they lead.

the things they routinely say on any cable news station on any given Tuesday is miles and miles beyond anything Savage said here.

[yolland]

Originally Posted by INDY500

It would be really nice if those preaching civility, tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and all that were a tad better at practicing what they preach.

This is the kind of thing people looking for excuses to avoid relating to gay people as equals say. Ditto for "embracing homosexuality," as if coming out were a self-gratifying means of spurning and offending people.

For someone who enjoys Rush Limbaugh and Ted Nugent, you seem to have a pretty low tolerance for gay public figures with a rep for being provocative and fiery. I find Savage's bitterness far easier to understand (though I don't much care for him), but in any case he's just one person.

[INDY500]

Dan Savage discusses bible at High School Journalism convention - YouTube

Dan Savage is a vicious, hateful religious bigot.

[Irvine511]

Gee, touch of hyperbole there? I mean, just a little bit?

I posted the text of this earlier. Pointing out inconsistencies in te application of certain Biblical rules or mandates is hardly extraordinary, or new, or even remarkable.

Seems you enjoy feeling like a victim, and the whole "bigot card" thing.

[digitize]

I completely agree with Savage (yeah yeah, I know, I'm a vicious, hateful bigot), but the venue does make it seem a little rude to me.

[ladyfreckles]

I think it's pretty safe to say that bullying ruined my academic experience, and my parents not taking it seriously lead to a lot of problems in high school. It's easy to say "just don't listen to them" when you're not the one being harassed every day.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I posted the text of this earlier. Pointing out inconsistencies in te application of certain Biblical rules or mandates is hardly extraordinary, or new, or even remarkable.

I've been told that doing that is "immature" and "rude" by the same people that told me I would be going to the underworld because I live with my significant other before marriage.

[INDY500]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

I posted the text of this earlier. Pointing out inconsistencies in te application of certain Biblical rules or mandates is hardly extraordinary, or new, or even remarkable.

Biblical illiteracy and misstating the application of Old Testament laws is one thing, calling it "Bullshit" is quite another.

Seems you enjoy feeling like a victim, and the whole "bigot card" thing.

I fail to see how hiding behind homosexuality to bash the Bible is any different than the inverse.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Biblical illiteracy and misstating the application of Old Testament laws is one thing, calling it "Bullshit" is quite another.

I think you should go back and read what he said.



[QUOTE/]

I fail to see how hiding behind homosexuality to bash the Bible is any different than the inverse.[/QUOTE]

He was bashing not the Bible but certain things in the bible that people use to justify prejudice and hate. So he was more bashing these "Christians" than the bible itself.

But if people think that religion absolves them from responsibility for their words and actions, well, they proves his point.

Gay people have to listen to far far far worse on a daily basis from Christians on a daily basis. Savage called the inconsistent application of certain parts of the bible bullshit. Said "Christians" work to destroy my rights and call the most intimate parts of our lives not just an abomination but an actual threat to civilization.

It's not even close.

[BEAL]

How hard is it to see what Savage was saying? Religious leaders, members/followers have routinely showed either an ignorance to their own holy book or lack of irony behind their statements.

Plenty of people use the "it says so in the bible" to justify their denial of a basic right towards homosexuality. Yet, it also states the following is a sin, and punishable by death:

Shellfish
Working on sabbath
Mixing of linen for clothing
Woman's virginity
Stating if a woman is raped by man that he can marry her.

How many of those in the bible do we consider worthy of executing in today's society (tho an Islamic society seem to do a very good job of keeping to their holy books word/rules)???

So to fucking cherry pick the few gay verses while pretending the other stuff doesn't relate is nothing more than bullshit.

I still believe we're a few decades away from homosexuality being the latest of the irrelevant bigoted statements from the bible.

Good for Dan for saying it

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Biblical illiteracy and misstating the application of Old Testament laws is one thing, calling it "Bullshit" is quite another.


I fail to see how hiding behind homosexuality to bash the Bible is any different than the inverse.

Would you bash someone for saying slavery is wrong? I don't think you would. I'm not sure why the mere fact that it's the Bible suddenly means it's sacrosanct and should not be criticized. You used the word "bash" as if he's being unreasonable. Far from it. As Irvine said, he's not saying anything that's incorrect. The Bible has been wrong on some things, and people are inconsistent in their applications of it, especially anti-gay Christians. Nothing he said was incorrect.

[BVS]

American conservative christianity ignores the teachings of Jesus and embraces religion because it absolves them of their hate.

So I'm not surprised that so many are completely missing savage's point.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by INDY500

Biblical illiteracy and misstating the application of Old Testament laws is one thing, calling it "Bullshit" is quite another.


I fail to see how hiding behind homosexuality to bash the Bible is any different than the inverse.

I personally have to agree that I DO think anti-gay views are bullshit, whether they're coming from the Bible or elsewhere. Being anti-gay makes absolutely no sense, and I've yet to hear any reasonable argument as to why it's okay to be anti-gay. Especially since, again, people are willing to not follow the Bible other times when it suits their purposes or when the culture changes to the point where certain things aren't acceptable anymore (such as slavery). Maybe Savage could have made the point less bluntly, but then again, hey, you know, religious figures certainly have no problem being blunt in their messages ("you're going to hell if you do/don't do this", "x activity is a sin", "Jesus is the only way", etc., etc.). They don't give a crap if what they say is offensive to people, so why should Savage have to care, have to tiptoe around the issue? Especially if it's one that is personal to him? I can imagine if I were gay and had to hear the things that anti-gay people said day in and day out I'd probably be pretty angry after a while, too, and not really in the mood to be so polite with my thoughts anymore.

All that being said, personally, I don't care if the Bible is anti or pro-gay, I care that people are basing their entire worldview on the book no matter what it says. It's fine to look at a book and get some interesting insights and viewpoints of all sorts, and take away some messages or words that can inspire you and comfort you and such, but to have it alone be the basis for all your thinking makes no sense to me. I think Savage is mainly trying to say people should think for themselves instead of let the words of centuries ago writers rule their thoughts, more than anything.

And if people want to walk out, that is their right to do so, but at the same time...you're going to hear opinions that will offend you or that you won't agree with at some point. Instead of walking out, at least maybe hear what they have to say. You don't have to agree at all, but how will we get anywhere, how will we learn anything, if we don't hear each other out? And yes, I would say the same thing if the situation were reversed. I find the views of the Santorums of the world absolutely repugnant, but I certainly want to hear what they say, if for no other reason than to see what their arguments are so that I can see where I want to strengthen my own arguments on the issue.

[INDY500]

The sad irony of an adult anti-bullying crusader using bullying tactics on minors including foul language and directing laughter towards them is apparently overloading the common decency lobe in some of you.

[Moonlit_Angel]

Originally Posted by INDY500

The rich irony of an adult anti-bullying crusader using bullying tactics on minors including foul language and directing laughter towards them is apparently overloading the common decency lobe in some of you.

Fight fire with fire, "eye for an eye" (Bible readers should appreciate that one, I'd think, they sure enjoy pulling out that mindset in regards to other issues), "treat others as you wish to be treated", perhaps?

Again, I agree that it's not the method I'd use, and I think his views would likely be taken more seriously if he toned things down. Especially since he is an adult, and they are teenagers.

However, some people suggest you won't truly know what it feels like to be mistreated and insulted and whatnot until it happens to you.

[ladyfreckles]

Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel

However, some people suggest you won't truly know what it feels like to be mistreated and insulted and whatnot until it happens to you.

Some people don't understand regardless. There is a rare variety of people that are so emotionally tough and have high enough self esteem that insults do not bother them. I knew a girl that could handle the worst of bullying without batting an eye--because she genuinely believed she was better than everybody else anyway. Learning to take with a grain of salt the opinions of your peers is a skill that is gained with age. Most kids in grade school, and even middle school, do not have this down to a T yet. Nowadays I can ignore somebody who is "bullying" me, but when I was a kid I didn't stand a chance.

Unfortunately it seems that the people who are immune to bullying will continue to talk about how they don't see what the big deal is.

[maycocksean]

As a Christian, I understand what Dan Savage was trying to say, and I more or less agree with him. As someone who treats the Bible as sacred the use of the word "bullshit" doesn't sit well with me, but I also understand that he is not a Christian and so is not bound to treat the Bible with the kind of reverence I would. Nevertheless, I am able to seperate my personal sensiblities and agree that there is much that we Christians consider irrelevant/no longer applicable in Scripture and thus our fidelity to the Scriptures on homosexuality is a more than a little suspect.

[yolland]

Originally Posted by INDY500

The sad irony of an adult anti-bullying crusader using bullying tactics on minors including foul language and directing laughter towards them is apparently overloading the common decency lobe in some of you.

The irony wasn't lost on me. But that's a completely different question from whether Savage can be fairly made a reflection on "those preaching civility, tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and all that" in general (he can't) or whether he's "a vicious, hateful religious bigot" (Savage was raised in a strict Catholic family and attended seminary-prep highschool, which creates some problems for that characterization--assuming you meant anti-religious bigot).

I do think whoever thought Savage would make a great keynote speaker for a highschool journalism conference showed some pretty questionable judgment. His hallmark as a writer (he's primarily known as a sex advice columnist and blogger on LGBTQ issues, particularly antigay discrimination) is his shock-jockish style--fans read him partly to see how outrageously crude or acidly skewering he'll manage to be today, whether he's talking about NOM or S&M etiquette. As with other public figures of similar persona, that doesn't make him a through-and-through asshole or a guy without a heart, but it does make him an eyebrow-raising choice for a venue like that, regardless of his status as co-creator of the It Gets Better project.