Bullying - What Can Be Done?

[MrsSpringsteen]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

Bullying is just this. Snide remarks every now and then, these small needle pinches that may come at any moment.

I agree with that too

[moiph]

Originally Posted by maycocksean

This is the conventional wisdom, but I read a report somewhere recently (sorry, I can't recall the source ) that found that kids with good self esteem can be just as likely to bully as those with low self esteem. Some bullies, actually feel pretty damn good about themselves.

I think it is sometimes more complicated than mere self-esteem. The human capacity for cruelty, particularly towards the weak, is truly sad. I think perhaps bullying has as much to do with power differentials as anything else. Some people recognize those that are weaker, don't fit in etc and choose to be kind, others see as it as an opportunity to throw their power around for their own amusement.

I think it's a combination. There will always be kids who will never feel guilty about hurting other people. Then there are kids who do it for power (maybe not out of low self esteem, but to be more powerful). Taking the power away from them means no longer enabling the behavior.

The way I see it, kids will call each other names like poop face, stupid, etc. They're gonna get into playground brawls and make fun of what other kids like. But when the attacks start to get personal and result in serious emotional harm to the victim, adults need to do something about it.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by anitram

I'm wondering how fluent your German would be?

I get being the grammar police, but come on, it's incredible that we have international posters who speak English this well and are able to engage with us without having to shame them for types of errors that a good chunk of native speakers would make.

Just my $0.02....

Irregardless, I just didn't feel like responding to something completely opinion based. But point taken. I don't know everyone's nationalities off hand. That was some jersey shore shit though. And for the record, I like VV because he posts in the photo thread. He probably knows I wasn't being a complete dick

[HBK-79]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

I disagree. Irregardless of the quality of one's performance, above quotes are unacceptable. If you are a superior and you want to tell one of your employees that their work is not according to standard, or the way they work doesn't fit in with how the others work, then you sit down, have a talk, name reasons and examples etc. and give advice or suggestions how the person could improve on those points.

Bullying is just this. Snide remarks every now and then, these small needle pinches that may come at any moment.

My boss didn't believe in talking things out. Rather, she believed in verbal discipline.

[KhanadaRhodes]

since all i have to go on is what you've posted in here, i say you were bullied. or you were a really bad employee. or possibly somewhere in between the two. it's hard to tell since i don't know what you did for a living or anything. i can understand you not wanting to tell us your private info but on the other hand, you did come in here and ask for advice.

like i said, just going by what's been said, all i can assume is the more likely scenario - not that you were some awful employee, but also not that your boss was a bully, but somewhere in between. that your working style didn't mesh with hers (which has happened to me too, i've had bosses want to micromanage me which is annoying) and she had a knack of saying things before she thought them through. whether she tried to make it work and was nicer (or whether you did, of course) earlier on i have no idea, maybe at the end she just got tired and frustrated. maybe she wasn't even frustrated at you, but her boss was hassling her over budget crap and she was afraid her department might get drastically cut, or cut completely. it doesn't excuse what she said, but depending on the context and everything, it might just be a frustrated boss, or it might be bullying. i don't know.

[Headache in a Suitcase]

If one is in a customer service role, and/or one is an insufferable prick, then questioning of one's personality is certainly something a boss can do.

As what was said earlier... I can see all of those things that were said as being bullying, and I can see all of those things as a valid job evaluation.

If you suck at your job, and the boss tells you you suck at your job? That's not bullying. That's life. If the boss tells you you're a little dicked, incompetent asshole for no apparent reason... that's bullying.

If you were harassed and then terminated without cause, most people would have a very strong wrongful termination suit.

[Vincent Vega]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Irregardless, I just didn't feel like responding to something completely opinion based. But point taken. I don't know everyone's nationalities off hand. That was some jersey shore shit though. And for the record, I like VV because he posts in the photo thread. He probably knows I wasn't being a complete dick

As compared to your well-researched, facts-based posts about bullying and harassment.

Guess we keep it at posting pictures then.

Thanks anitram. I genuinely thought the word existed.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

As compared to your well-researched, facts-based posts about bullying and harassment.

Did I say somewhere that I was giving researched, fact based arguments? How does one go about researching their own opinion on something like this? You clearly didn't understand my point. I have an opinion and you have a differing opinion. I think some people are being over sensitive and thin skinned, you don't. There is nothing further to discuss

Originally Posted by Vincent Vega

Guess we keep it at posting pictures then.

If you're going to misread everything I post and get all upset, then ya, that's cool

[HBK-79]

I realize I should've posted more of the back story regarding the relationship between myself and my boss. However, it's a LONG story spanning over 18 months.

Originally Posted by KhanadaRhodes

like i said, just going by what's been said, all i can assume is the more likely scenario - not that you were some awful employee, but also not that your boss was a bully, but somewhere in between. that your working style didn't mesh with hers (which has happened to me too, i've had bosses want to micromanage me which is annoying) and she had a knack of saying things before she thought them through. whether she tried to make it work and was nicer (or whether you did, of course) earlier on i have no idea, maybe at the end she just got tired and frustrated. maybe she wasn't even frustrated at you, but her boss was hassling her over budget crap and she was afraid her department might get drastically cut, or cut completely. it doesn't excuse what she said, but depending on the context and everything, it might just be a frustrated boss, or it might be bullying. i don't know.

That's my conclusion. She was a micromanager, and my work habits didn't compliment her vision of the ideal employee.

However, as VV stated, my boss could've had a constructive converstion with me, or simply let me go. Instead, she kept me around for 18 months, and spend the entire time tearing me down.

Originally Posted by Headache in a Suitcase

If one is in a customer service role, and/or one is an insufferable prick, then questioning of one's personality is certainly something a boss can do.

As what was said earlier... I can see all of those things that were said as being bullying, and I can see all of those things as a valid job evaluation.

If you suck at your job, and the boss tells you you suck at your job? That's not bullying. That's life. If the boss tells you you're a little dicked, incompetent asshole for no apparent reason... that's bullying.

If you were harassed and then terminated without cause, most people would have a very strong wrongful termination suit.

For starters, I wasn't in customer service. I was in chemical engineering. And I have a boatload of references from previous jobs.

Personally, a boss coming out and literally saying "I can't believe I hired you" to your face is the very epitome of childishness and rudeness, especially if your boss is a departmental director.

If my boss was dissatisfied with my performances, then she should've let me go within 3-6 months of my employment, rather than keep me around and continually harbor ill-will towards me. Seriously, she had it in for me the entire time I was with the company.

Even if I tried to sue for wrongful termination, she would've fabricated some type of justification, because she had a bunch of yes men up her butt.

[Irvine511]

sounds like a bummer. sorry.

[Jive Turkey]

HBK had sent me a detailed message regarding the boss situation. Sounds like she was a giant bitch

[Irvine511]

well, i suppose that's what HR is for?

[deep]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

HBK had sent me a detailed message regarding the boss situation. Sounds like she was a giant bitch

go sit in the corner

[MrsSpringsteen]

Bully is going to be released Friday without a rating. Apparently most theaters treat unrated movies just like NC 17.

[yolland]

Slate's Emily Bazelon had generally good things to say about the movie, but was disturbed by what she found to be its serious oversimplification of the link between bullying and suicide:

At the heart of the documentary are the deaths of two boys, 11-year-old Ty Smalley and 17-year-old Tyler Long. Hirsch dwells on the Long narrative, in a drawn-out opening sequence narrated by Long’s father and in several other painful scenes. We see home video of Tyler growing up in Murray County, GA. We see his parents at his gravesite. We hear that bullying—and bullying alone—caused his death. We see a town hall meeting at which Tyler’s mother blasts the police officer stationed at his school, Murray County High, for failing to help her son.

What we don’t see is Tyler’s mental health history. Here’s some of what’s missing. Tyler, who died when he was a junior, was diagnosed with ADHD, bipolar disorder, and Asperger’s (autism with a normal to high IQ) in sixth grade. Five weeks before his death, Tyler’s father found him in his room “messing” with belts and asked his son if he was contemplating suicide. Tyler said no, and his parents believed him. About two weeks later, however, on Sept. 25, 2009, the Longs took Tyler to see a psychologist, at least in part because he wanted to go. Tyler’s parents, Tina and David, didn’t tell the psychologist about their suicide concerns or report that their son was being mistreated in school, even though the psychologist asked about this specifically. (The Longs also didn’t tell the school that Tyler might be suicidal, or that he’d gone for counseling.) The Longs scheduled a follow-up appointment with the psychologist for Tyler on Oct. 12, five days before Tyler's death. Tyler didn’t show up. The reason, his mother said later, was that he had totaled his car. A couple of other facts that could be relevant to Tyler’s mental health state: He had a girlfriend in fall 2009 who broke up with him. Also in September, his parents pulled him from all of his honors and AP classes, where he had high marks, to make sure he could keep up his grades and remain eligible for Georgia’s Hope Scholarship, which helps pay for college at in-state universities.

These facts all come from a brief filed by the Murray County school district in response to a lawsuit filed by Long’s family, which blames school officials for Tyler’s death and demands $1.7 million in damages. The family’s brief in response doesn’t dispute these facts, saying instead that they are “irrelevant and immaterial.” You will learn none of this from watching Bully.

I asked Hirsch why he didn’t mention Tyler’s diagnoses. “I really felt that by not disclosing it, we wouldn’t allow the audience to prejudge,” he said. “It was a decision we thought about a lot. Ultimately, we thought the film would be more powerful without it.”

To Ann Haas, a senior project specialist for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, this was a serious error. When I played Bully for Haas, she recoiled in horror, and I don’t use the word lightly. “To leave Tyler’s mental health problems out of the film is an egregious omission,” she said. “It is really misinformation. The filmmakers’ had the opportunity to present bullying as a trigger, as one factor that played a role in a young person’s suicide. But to draw a direct line without referencing anything else—I’m appalled, honestly. That is hugely, hugely unfortunate.” Haas feels strongly about this for a few reasons. First, research shows a strong link between Asperger’s and suicide and a link between bipolar disorder and suicide as well. This means these facts about Tyler are important to understanding his decision to take his life. There’s more, too. From Haas’ point of view, by presenting such an incomplete version of the facts, Hirsch has created a real risk of suicide contagion—the documented phenomenon of people mimicking suicidal behavior in light of media representations. “I worry terribly about the contagion effect,” Haas said. “One message of this move is: ‘Bullying kills’—as if it’s a normal response to kill yourself, when of course most people who are bullied don’t do that. Young people who feel bullied could harken back to the movie, and it could be a powerful draw to suicide for them. If Tyler had been accurately portrayed as a kid with mental health challenges that were very hard for him to manage, he wouldn’t seem so attractive. We might feel sympathy for him, but he wouldn’t have the emotional pull of a character who is being romanticized. When you turn a real person, who had a very painful, distressing life, into a kind of fairytale character, that’s something young people are much more likely to identify with. And identification is at the heart of contagion.”

There’s another omission in the film that dismayed Haas. The police report on Tyler’s death made public the suicide note he left. It reads:

Dear Family,

If you are reading this I am DEAD. I don’t want to live any
longer with this burden I have. I don’t have a supporting
family or friends for that matter. You think I am
worthless and pathetic. All I wanted was acceptance
and kindness, but no I didn’t get love. Maybe I’ll see you
in the afterlife or not. I want to end this pain I have and to
live in eternal hapiness [sic]. I hate myself because I don’t
make everyone happy. Tr. [younger brother] I love you because we share a
battle of disabilities. Te., [younger sister] You will be great someday. Tina,
Your personality is what helped me. David, I looked up to
you for all my life and I love you the most. This World will
be a better place without me.

Sincerely,
Tyler Lee Long
1992-2009

The suicide note has seemingly nothing to do with bullying. By now, you must be wondering: What bullying did Tyler Long experience? Honestly, after watching the movie and reading all of the legal papers filed by Tyler’s family and his school, I’m not sure. In the film, David Long says that kids banged Tyler’s head into a school locker a day or two before his death. No one has said who those kids are supposed to be. Murray County High has 42 video cameras installed throughout the school and grounds. They cover the hallway where Tyler’s locker was. The police looked at the tape on the relevant days and saw no one pushing Tyler’s head into a locker or doing anything else to him. This allegation also disappeared from the family’s lawsuit after it was challenged by the school. In the movie and in the suit, Tyler’s family says that he was bullied daily. Nine students quoted in the Longs’ brief say things like “students spit in his food in the cafeteria,” and “he was pushed in the back of his head in the cafeteria and would yell ‘leave me alone’ and then throw his plate away and leave,” and “they’d call him retarded, slow, faggot,” and “people would pull his pants down in the bathroom and throw stuff at him.”

It’s very hard to tell, but it doesn’t seem that these accusations and others like them are about Tyler’s junior year. They seem to be about middle school and the first year and a half of high school. In ninth grade, Tyler had real trouble in school with other kids, his mother complained, and school staff tried to help him. In 10th grade, there was an incident in which Tyler called a girl a “pregnant bitch” and was pushed down the stairs by her boyfriend. The boy and the girl received five-day in-school suspensions for bullying Tyler, and the Longs asked prosecutors to press criminal charges. After that, Tyler told a teacher a student kicked him in hallway, but he didn’t want it reported because it was just horseplay. The teacher reported it anyway, and the student got an in-school suspension for three days. Also, in Spanish class in December 2008, a teacher saw a student irritating Tyler, and in discussing the incident afterward with his counselor, Tyler said he was picked on daily but was “used to it.” When she asked him to name the perpetrators, however, he didn’t. That’s the end of the written record of bullying, with one possible exception. In the days before his death, the Longs say Tyler experienced “egregious bullying” in his guitar class. The teacher saw some “jawing,” but nothing else. A friend of Tyler’s who saw what happened said that another student pretended to take Tyler’s guitar away, then cut it out when told to stop, and that Tyler wasn’t upset afterward.

Maybe there is more to the bullying than that—maybe kids were mean and unfriendly in Tyler’s junior year, and he kept this buried inside, or he told his family and they didn’t report it to the school. But the allegations the nine students make in the lawsuit are for the most part vague and unspecific. Given the contested facts in the lawsuit, when I spoke to Hirsch over the phone, I asked him whether he’d tried to talk to anyone from the Murray County schools. At first he said yes, then he said he wasn’t sure, then noted that the school district was invited to a town hall meeting that’s shown in the film, but school officials declined to come. “By not attending, they made a very clear statement,” Hirsch said. A minute or two later, the phone went dead, and Hirsch said he’d call me back. He didn’t. Instead, he sent me a statement days later saying, “Our additional attempts to engage school officials in person were declined.” The lawyer for the Murray County schools says that no one in the district remembers hearing from Hirsch or his crew.

Hirsch also told me, “I presented the parent’s perspective. That was my story.” But is that enough? On television, Tina Long has said of the school district officials she blames for failing to help Tyler, “I think they killed my son, I think they led him to do what he did.” This is a message you could take from the movie, too: The only thing that matters in explaining Tyler’s death is that school officials failed to prevent bullies from tormenting him.

I don’t want to excuse kids who were cruel to Tyler, or the problems he had in school. And I can understand a family’s desire to assign blame for a child’s awful death. And believe me, I know that by describing the other problems Tyler was facing, I will be accused of blaming the victim. But given the larger set of facts about the death of Tyler Long, does Bully portray it responsibly? There are real people on the receiving end of these blame campaigns, campaigns that certain members of the media are all too eager to embrace. Reviews of the movie thus far have assumed that Hirsch’s version of the story is complete and true, with no mentions of the ongoing court battle. Just as important, the stated mission of this movie is to portray the problem of bullying honestly and accurately. By taking the parents’ side so completely, and leaving out all the information that doesn’t fit his narrative, Hirsch oversimplifies and distorts. His film is supposed to be a teaching tool, yet it offers some serious misimpressions about the connection between bullying and suicide, misimpressions that could have real effects on young viewers.

[MrsSpringsteen]

Rather ridiculous that Hunger Games, with teenagers killing each other, gets a PG 13 and Bully is unrated because of language. Obviously Hunger Games is a book and they're trying to convey the book in an authentic way. But I think the violence was probably made just graphic enough to get a PG 13 rather than a PG, and they couldn't have an R because of the target audience. Just points out that the ratings system is a joke, especially in this situation. Bullying is a real life situation that teens face every day - don't think they'll be in districts playing hunger games any time soon.

[Liesje]

FWIW, I read a LOT of nasty, violent, disturbing books (all those rec. reading medical thrillers and murder mystery crap) and the last part of Hunger Games was one of the most gratuitously violent things I've ever read. I keep wondering how the heck they're going to stay true to the story there...the first one was already far less brutal than the book (most of the stuff was there, but not portrayed in the detail and prolonged suffering as in the book).

Anyway, I'd like to see this Bully film but will wait for the second-run cheap theater or when it's released to rent.

[Jive Turkey]

Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen

Just points out that the ratings system is a joke

Have you seen This Film is Not Yet Rated? You're right. That system is far beyond a joke

[PhilsFan]

A little annoying that Harvey Weinstein is basically using this movie to gain ground in the debate over the ratings system, especially considering the fact that the movie takes a good opportunity and squanders it, based on what I've read.

[corianderstem]

Originally Posted by Jive Turkey

Have you seen This Film is Not Yet Rated? You're right. That system is far beyond a joke

YES. It was stunning in its appallingness.