Brexit

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7

Appreciate it, but I'm actually in the US for a few weeks then out to Leicester. Don't know if Leicester is seeing the xenophobia extra hard, or the opposite.

wow, Leicester is not far from where i grew up - it's a really multicultural place - awesome football club lately too hehe

well i'm not sure how the vote went in Leicester, but the Midlands as a whole weren't looking great i think, and sadly racism there can be pretty grim due to the very vocal extreme right contingent as always in a multicultural context

but it's hard to know without being there, and most people are lovely, just a few idiots spoiling it for everyone... there's a "safety pin" campaign happening in the UK at the moment where people are wearing a plain safety pin to show others that they are a "safe" person to sit next to on the train etc. - although i can't believe it has come to this

however, apparently travel warnings have been issued for Britain following Brexit and i've read reports about even tourists being attacked - i look visibly "foreign" in Britain and am holding off plans to visit family over there right now, but am hoping it will calm down soon... good luck with everything!! feel free to PM me if you want to chat about things!!

[Muad'zin]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

You have incredible faith in politicians.

I have zero faith in politicians. But when I see how stupid the average voter is, and I realize that half of the electorate is even more stupid then that, politicians start to look mighty good by comparison.

Thing also is, our political system operates on the understanding that we, the people, do not all have the knowhow, understanding or capability to make informed decisions on every issue, so we elect delegates to make those decisions for us. It's imperfect, but all the alternatives suck even worse. Direct democracy was tried in Ancient Athens and it led to demagogues starting stupid wars (read upon the expedition to Syracuse) and the electorate into voting themselves free money.

I think Brexit was a revolt against entrenched political systems in Europe. A bloodless rebellion.

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

So voters should be required to take a current events test in order to vote?

Ideally, yes. As a significant part of them are political retards. In practice the scope of abuse in that system means there's no actual improvement so we might as well stick with the current system. Of electing officials to vote on our behalf every so couple of years.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

There seems to be an assumption running through this thread that the majority of people who voted Leave must not have had any rationale for what they were doing or any sense of consequence. That's one hell of an assumption.

I think that applies for most people. They make emotional decisions and only rationalize those decisions afterwards. Referendums make that worse because it turns incredibly complex issues into simple yes or nos. It's made worse that people use referendums to express displeasure with current governments. Considering what was at stake this referendum was the equivalent of being so pissed off with the house that you're living in that you set fire to your own room.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I don't doubt the significant role xenophobia and racism played in the outcome, but it's far too early to make pronouncements about Leave being a mistake, regardless of individual rationales for voting how they did.

I'm just an American onlooker obviously, but I think the EU is a failed experiment and that, if Britain follows through on leaving, this whole thing might turn out to be in their economic favor in the long run.

It might be argued that the US is also a failed experiment. There is a massive disconnect between voters and politicians as well, half the people don't vote, the president can't pass anything through Congress because of gridlock, campaign financing makes politicians corrupt and bought by big business and you have a massive national debt. By comparison EU decision making might be slow, but at least it always manages to squeeze out a compromise to get things going again. It might not be a perfect compromise, but it's more then the US Congress seems able to do.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

This makes sense, but for me this underscores a problem with the logic of the EU. Why put up red tape for investors or companies at all? By doing so you are forcing a choice that doesn't need to be there in the first place and in the process reducing surplus. Why not have a free-trade zone among European countries or even a larger conglomerate and get rid of the common currency and central bank? There is going to be UK/Eurozone integration regardless of the UK's membership - why not make it easy rather than difficult?

Because a free trade zone needs a common set of rules and regulations to work. Otherwise jobs would move en masse to those countries with the lowest wages and standards. Like what happened with NAFTA. We don't want a race to the bottom. Consumers need to know that what they are buying in the shop is actually what it says it is. That the chocolate they're buying is actual chocolate, not some poor substitute or made of poor quality.

[Salome]

Adrift | The Economist

[Salome]

Muad'zin, agreed with yuor entire post

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Muad'zin

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

This is a bit of a blanket statement, isn't it though? No revolution is the same and it's hard to compare those many decades apart (and naturally I disagree with the notion that the Russian revolution of 1917 did not improve the situation at the time, especially given the state of the Tsarist regime).

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Muad'zin

True. But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

well Bastille Day is a pretty big thing here

[mama cass]

well this trainwreck is still so compelling

Gove has done another u-turn and is now running for PM and Boris has stood down

Labour is still in complete disarray and emotions are running high

no sign of the stiff upper lip and all that...

all we need now is for U2 to stealth drop their album onto everyone's iphones again

(not kidding - we need saving from this hell)

[Vlad n U 2]

Boris just repeating his youth in the Bullingdon Club. Smashing things up and then running off.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Boris just repeating his youth in the Bullingdon Club. Smashing things up and then running off.

trouble is, he's got nowhere to go - he will be the most hated man in Britain - on BOTH SIDES - bet he never saw that one coming...

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by Muad'zin

Because a free trade zone needs a common set of rules and regulations to work. Otherwise jobs would move en masse to those countries with the lowest wages and standards. Like what happened with NAFTA. We don't want a race to the bottom. Consumers need to know that what they are buying in the shop is actually what it says it is. That the chocolate they're buying is actual chocolate, not some poor substitute or made of poor quality.

That is not what happened with NAFTA. Rather there has been net US job creation since the launch of NAFTA. Sure, some unskilled jobs left for Mexico etc, but this was going to happen with or without a free-trade agreement, whether to Mexico or Indonesia or wherever else.

Yes there is bureaucracy necessary for a free-trade agreement, but I will hold to my point that the Euro and European Central Bank are not necessary for that to work. You just have to look at Greece to see how problematic it is to apply the same interest rates, goods access, etc to economies with wildly different strength levels. Sending a bunch of Mercedes over to Greece on super easy credit hasn't worked out for anyone.

[martha]

Originally Posted by mama cass

bet he never saw that one coming...

They never do.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

(and naturally I disagree with the notion that the Russian revolution of 1917 did not improve the situation at the time, especially given the state of the Tsarist regime).

at least until stalin, i would say you're absolutely right.

[iron yuppie]

Those early years under Lenin were hellish, weren't they? Famine, civil war, state-wide censorship - I'd be curious to hear how things were worse under Nicholas, World War I notwithstanding.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

Those early years under Lenin were hellish, weren't they? Famine, civil war, state-wide censorship - I'd be curious to hear how things were worse under Nicholas, World War I notwithstanding.

I'm going to keep this hidden, don't want to get too off topic in this thread.

 

The early years weren't easy by any stretch. It would have been unreasonable to imagine they could have been plain sailing. Coming through a revolution and then engaged in a civil war backed by foreign powers (which of course had a resulting effect on further years). Famines were a common occurrence in the Russian Empire. The putting down of the German revolution didn't help either. It was not really an ideal time to have initiated a revolution.

The rule of the last Tsar had events such as the suppression of the 1905 revolution and Bloody Sunday. It's important to understand the relations between the Tsar and the working masses leading to the overthrow of the monarchy.

[LuckyNumber7]

Originally Posted by mama cass

wow, Leicester is not far from where i grew up - it's a really multicultural place - awesome football club lately too hehe



well i'm not sure how the vote went in Leicester, but the Midlands as a whole weren't looking great i think, and sadly racism there can be pretty grim due to the very vocal extreme right contingent as always in a multicultural context



but it's hard to know without being there, and most people are lovely, just a few idiots spoiling it for everyone... there's a "safety pin" campaign happening in the UK at the moment where people are wearing a plain safety pin to show others that they are a "safe" person to sit next to on the train etc. - although i can't believe it has come to this



however, apparently travel warnings have been issued for Britain following Brexit and i've read reports about even tourists being attacked - i look visibly "foreign" in Britain and am holding off plans to visit family over there right now, but am hoping it will calm down soon... good luck with everything!! feel free to PM me if you want to chat about things!!

Leicester was a small dot of remain in a sea of leave. Where did you grow up?

I'm not too worried. I'll just play the card that I'm Northern Irish. It's totally messed up what is happening over there though.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

I'm going to keep this hidden, don't want to get too off topic in this thread.

 

The early years weren't easy by any stretch. It would have been unreasonable to imagine they could have been plain sailing. Coming through a revolution and then engaged in a civil war backed by foreign powers (which of course had a resulting effect on further years). Famines were a common occurrence in the Russian Empire. The putting down of the German revolution didn't help either. It was not really an ideal time to have initiated a revolution.

The rule of the last Tsar had events such as the suppression of the 1905 revolution and Bloody Sunday. It's important to understand the relations between the Tsar and the working masses leading to the overthrow of the monarchy.

[LuckyNumber7]

Also, who called it?

Cameron with the checkmate on Boris Johnson. He's not running.

[Aygo]

Originally Posted by Muad'zin

But then again when has any people actually been better off after a revolution? Ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians if their revolutions improved on their situations.

Ask portuguese if their lives got better or worse before the revolution(s).
Just a mere example. We can go back in History and travel the globe to find other good examples.

[DaveC]

i would suggest that cuba was better off from the perspective of the average citizen after castro booted batista, as long as that citizen wasn't involved with the batista government.

[BVS]

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