Brexit

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by Oregoropa

I can imagine this thread in 1776 being a Loyalist hotbed. These damn Continental Congressman are a bunch of backwards uneducated rubes preying on the colonies' lowest common denominators. Don't they know King George has a mandate from God and is only looking out for their best interests. It's time they start paying more than their fair share to the crown. How dare they aspire to have free will?

*with an obnoxiously loud bullhorn*

HEY EVERYONE ON THE RIGHT, IT IS NOT 1776 ANYMORE

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

No, not aimed at you at all. I just think the assumption tends to be that those who voted differently than what we would have done must not have had any idea what they were doing. If the vote had gone the other way, for example, would anyone now be questioning how informed the British voters are?

You know the answer to that

[BVS]

.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

No, not aimed at you at all. I just think the assumption tends to be that those who voted differently than what we would have done must not have had any idea what they were doing. If the vote had gone the other way, for example, would anyone now be questioning how informed the British voters are?

well, Farage said all along, if it were a close outcome, with Remain winning, he would demand a second referendum

i think the problem is the very small majority win more than anything

(and it's ultimately parliament who will have to decide anyway)

[BVS]

Originally Posted by deep

Of course not, he does not even recognize Islamic terror

Why do you think he never released his real birth certificate?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference

[corianderstem]

Probably because he doesn't even actually exist. DUH.

[Irvine511]

It's interesting how the far-ish Left and the far-ish Right seem to be finding common ground.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by digitize

To nobody's shock, Corbyn lost his vote of no confidence. But it's nonbinding and he's trying to ignore it.

The membership overwhelmingly support him, he would have been silly to accept it. The Blairites have been trying to get rid of him ever since he got in.

Originally Posted by mama cass

it has actually made my day that he is refusing to resign! he is finally showing a little bit of character - i love that he is a man of the people, and i don't think "charisma" is always a good trait for a politician - so am feeling a tiny bit hopeful right now...

in my ideal world - my plan for Britain (i've been thinking about this alllll day) would be: parliament will vote not to trigger the exit clause, the Tory government will be exposed and discredited for getting us into this mess in the first place, Labour will be unified under Jeremy Corbyn with mass backing of the people, and will go on to win the general elections to address the disconnect between national govt and the people (i.e., Labour will reclaim its traditional voters who have now veered to the far right for want of someone to hear them), and take steps to resolve the concerns of the whole swathes of the population who feel ignored (and for those reasons voted Brexit), and turn their anger into optimism that a new fair solution is possible, in the hope that we can achieve a fairer society and overcome divisions on so many levels

i think i must be on drugs or something

It sounds like a whole different world to that of today.

Originally Posted by Irvine511

It's interesting how the far-ish Left and the far-ish Right seem to be finding common ground.

Don't be daft.

[PhilsFan]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

There seems to be an assumption running through this thread that the majority of people who voted Leave must not have had any rationale for what they were doing or any sense of consequence. That's one hell of an assumption.

Isn't that because they've been finding an almost unfathomable number of people who say they voted Leave without thinking it had a chance to win? I mean, I think you're speaking to a larger, fairer point about it being a little uncomfortable how willing many on the left have been to embrace elitism in a very divisive time globally, but I don't necessarily think it's wrong to say a sizable portion of the British electorate fucked up big time, allowing opportunism to win the day with some help from out-and-out racists.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

Don't be daft.

You're like the best example of what I'm talking about.

[Diemen]

Originally Posted by deep

Of course not, he does not even recognize Islamic terror

C-

[iron yuppie]

Originally Posted by PhilsFan

Isn't that because they've been finding an almost unfathomable number of people who say they voted Leave without thinking it had a chance to win? I mean, I think you're speaking to a larger, fairer point about it being a little uncomfortable how willing many on the left have been to embrace elitism in a very divisive time globally, but I don't necessarily think it's wrong to say a sizable portion of the British electorate fucked up big time, allowing opportunism to win the day with some help from out-and-out racists.

I don't doubt the significant role xenophobia and racism played in the outcome, but it's far too early to make pronouncements about Leave being a mistake, regardless of individual rationales for voting how they did.

I'm just an American onlooker obviously, but I think the EU is a failed experiment and that, if Britain follows through on leaving, this whole thing might turn out to be in their economic favor in the long run.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

You're like the best example of what I'm talking about.

On what basis? Honestly, I refuse to believe you're not better than this.

[Irvine511]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

On what basis? Honestly, I refuse to believe you're not better than this.

The far-ish left and right find are find common ground in the populist scapegoating of "elites" (whatever those are), demands for ideological purity, suspecting the worst possible motivations of those who disagree with them, and the effective corralling of the economic anxieties of the working classes towards and against larger institutions that they now declare failed. And, in your case, the drive by snark.

I read the big Glen Greenwald article on Brexit from a few days ago, and it could have found a home in the National Review or whatever.

[Vlad n U 2]

Originally Posted by Irvine511

The far-ish left and right find are find common ground in the populist scapegoating of "elites" (whatever those are)

I have not yet seen you define what you mean by 'far-ish' left. I can assume you mean Sanders, who is not radical by any stretch of the imagination. It seems that you apply this label to any minor deviation from standard centrist politics.

demands for ideological purity, suspecting the worst possible motivations of those who disagree with them, and the effective corralling of the economic anxieties of the working classes towards and against larger institutions that they now declare failed.

Again, the notion that I have any real common ground with the right (anymore than you do) is utterly ridiculous.

And, in your case, the drive by snark.

I admit to some snark, but lets not pretend you're free of that either.

I read the big Glen Greenwald article on Brexit from a few days ago, and it could have found a home in the National Review or whatever.

Greenwald is far-left now?

Once more, you should define what you are talking about.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

No, not aimed at you at all. I just think the assumption tends to be that those who voted differently than what we would have done must not have had any idea what they were doing. If the vote had gone the other way, for example, would anyone now be questioning how informed the British voters are?

I think a lot of the people had an excellent idea what they were doing.
(Which is probably why hostility towards foreigners in the UK has increased with 57% since the referendum.)
In the couple of days since the referendum it has already been proven though that just about all the promises of team Brexit were lies, not exaggerations, but lies.
I'm sure a lot of the voters don't care about these lies and would still vote the same way now, but since the margin of victory wasn't that big it could well have made the difference.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

I'm just an American onlooker obviously, but I think the EU is a failed experiment

The EU has plenty of room for improvement. To call it a failed experiment I don't agree with. Yes, a lot of Europeans have a problem with what they consider a lack of democracy. Most of these people have the same complaints about their own national governments though and if they would look into their own municipality, they wouldn't like that either. Basically, not many people seem to understand how representative democracy works.

Originally Posted by iron yuppie

if Britain follows through on leaving, this whole thing might turn out to be in their economic favor in the long run.

I see this a lot, but I still have no idea what it is based on. Will the UK be plunged into the dark ages for an eternity after Brexit? - No. But why and how it would outperform a UK within the EU I don't get.
Unless the UK strikes a deal with the EU unparalleled to any of the other deals the EU has in place with European countries.
Which I severely doubt will happen.
In no negotiation can you cherry pick only that was is favourable to you, and the UK still needs the EU more than the other way around.

[mama cass]

Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2

It sounds like a whole different world to that of today.

i'm thinking about the world of tomorrow... the world today has gone to hell

[mama cass]

for all those saying "but democracy!!!" (aside from the fact that Britain is a representative democracy and not a direct democracy)

i just had to steal this:

- Segregation in the US was maintained by democracy
- Apartheid in SA was maintained by democracy
- Hitler and Mussolini were both elected

Democracy doesn't always make good decisions

[Mack_Again]

i don't necessarily can't care all that much for Brexit as i never lived in Europe (i haven't even been there) but I really hated UK leaving EU because now I see Boris Johnson's face every day on the news programs.

[Bluer White]

Originally Posted by mama cass

for all those saying "but democracy!!!" (aside from the fact that Britain is a representative democracy and not a direct democracy)

i just had to steal this:

Quote:
- Segregation in the US was maintained by democracy
- Apartheid in SA was maintained by democracy
- Hitler and Mussolini were both elected

Democracy doesn't always make good decisions

Yikes. That puts the UK vote in some pretty bad company