Biological sex and gender identity: differences and overlaps
- Thread starter INDY500
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Irvine511
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Vlad n U 2
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I don't think any was evident in the first place.
jeevey
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I agree. But I think INDY has now rendered the claim not just untrue but absurd.
INDY, your views on suicide, and I mean this 100% truthfully, are in line with what people thought in the 19th century. If you look at any number of social anthropology studies, it would become plainly obvious to you.
I won't even comment on the absurdity of the "intellect can overcome genes" argument. Have you ever taken a molecular biology class? I mean, this stuff is like 101.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
I'm glad you live such a happy life INDY, that you never had to endure enough misery and pain to ever have considered suicide. I hope one day people like you will allow people like me to live a normal, happy life as well without hate and bigotry.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
And of course, he's either going to ignore all of this or accuse "liberal FYM" of piling on and refusing to respect and debate ideas. That's modus operandi for GOP discourse. If you don't like the counter-argument, accuse it of bias.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Ironically this^ in a thread about humans feeling or thinking they are something other than their biological (chromosomal) sex.
Do you really think I believe someone can "think" themselves to to grow taller than their genes would otherwise determine? Or change their eye color or otherwise defy their DNA? NO, what I am talking about is those that seek to blame bad or unhealthy behavior on their genes. Or their environment. Or their emotions. It's a copout.
Do you think humans have freewill?
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Seriously, I give up. I assume that loved ones, friends and colleagues had done everything possible to help but if someone still takes their life they are ultimately responsible.
The Devil isn't to blame. High fructose corn syrup isn't to blame, Judas Priest records aren't to blame and mean conservatives aren't to blame.
Yes.
But the degree of free will is affected by a person's mental state.
It's a very absurd thing for you to say that suicide is always a choice, and a selfish and cowardly one. You have no understanding of mental health, that much is obvious.
I have spoken often of my aunt, who was a violent, paranoid schizophrenic. Who attempted suicide 3 times before she finally succeeded. When I was a little girl, she had to be kept away from children after she announced plans to boil my cousin and I in a cauldron and cook a stew with us. She was completely mentally ill and absolutely non-functional in society when she was off her meds, which was more often than not.
You just have no clue. It's not that it makes me angry, but sad at how ignorant you are.
jeevey
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
I think we all agree that humans have free will. But if some humans are regularly degraded, rejected and humiliated, made to feel that they are wrong and bad, have something intrinsically wrong about them, and experience a much higher incidence of bullying, abuse, rape and assault than the ordinary population, than it's reasonable that they might be suicidal more often and more intensely. In fact suicidal feelings might even the most reasonable and humane emotional response to the circumstances that trans people often live in. That's not to say suicide is the RIGHT response, but it's certainly an understandable one.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Let me de-generalize my ALL with All suicides*
* excluding psychotics and the mentally ill that fail to respond to treatment, those that martyr themselves to save the lives of others, those that sign Do Not Resuscitate waivers, and probably some others.
This would make an interesting topic as well.
Is the de-institutionalization that allows so many mentally ill people to wander our streets forgoing their medicine, counseling and other treatments often presenting as a danger to themselves as well as others... is that really compassion?
Ignorant? It's as if suicide isn't an issue of morality and ethics for you. Life is precious, there is always hope if one looks in the right place.
And by the way, you really should read up on the argument on the existence of freewill. You'd be surprised how many really, really smart people think humans have no freewill.
PhilsFan
Blue Crack Addict
Your argument is a polite version of "depressed people need to get over it."
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Morality and ethics don't mean much to someone mentally ill enough to commit suicide.
Absolutes are so self-serving.
Absolutes are so self-serving.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
You can't think yourself taller than your genes determine. But the human mind and body can lead to show us that there's more than we previously thought possible on topics we haven't approached much in the past, like gender.
Humans have free will, to a certain extent. Instinct is always there.
Suicide is a very complex thing, and most people who in the end grasp that measure see no other way out. There's an honest conviction that the world will be a better place without them, that their loved ones are much better off. It's commonly an act of selflessness, rather than selfishness, but it is not perceived that way by the outside world as we do not understand what that person was thinking. So we see it as a cop out, as something weak and selfish. Morality and ethics lose value when you're in a very deep dark place.
I would love to have this conversation.
The Republicans would support the increased social spending on the mentally ill, I take it?
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
The Republican God didn't.
Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness - Salon.com
Some of us are old enough to remember this.
Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness - Salon.com
Some of us are old enough to remember this.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
what i think INDY is getting at is the NRA line of thought that silly liberals loosened up the rules and regulations regarding mental health because they all saw "cuckoo's nest" and thought that mentally ill people were just misunderstood. so that's why we have more crazy walking the streets because it's become such a high bar to have someone committed against their will since the mid-1970s. because of the liberals, concerned family members no longer have the power to get someone committed. because of the liberals, we've put too much emphasis on patient's rights and not enough on law and order, and that's why mass shootings are just a mental health issue -- it's not the guns, you see, it's the fact that liberals want crazy people walking the streets because they're people too. it's not our fault if said crazy person can easily purchase an AR-15 and mow down a bunch of 2nd graders. it's the liberal's fault for not having him locked up in the first place.
and it's a choice to kill 2nd graders, of course. no one made Adam Lanza pull that trigger but Adam Lanza.
and Ronald Reagan is a great American.
So he wants insane asylums back?
To be honest, there is a valid point to be had about how some jurisdictions make it nearly impossible for the state to hold mentally ill people in certain circumstances. In the name of personal liberty we have sacrificed some amount of safety (for both the patient and the public at large), and this is worthy of looking into. I actually wrote a paper for it which was published in a legal journal back in 2008 when I was still a law school student.
To be honest, there is a valid point to be had about how some jurisdictions make it nearly impossible for the state to hold mentally ill people in certain circumstances. In the name of personal liberty we have sacrificed some amount of safety (for both the patient and the public at large), and this is worthy of looking into. I actually wrote a paper for it which was published in a legal journal back in 2008 when I was still a law school student.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
i'd agree there's some merit to the claim.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
It is a fine line isn't it? I'm sure you commented that this was done for many reasons including civil liberty issues, cost, overcrowding but also the advent of effective anti-psychotic medications that allowed many patients to lead normal lives...if they took their medication.
I'm sure you commented also on the fact that prisons have now become society's de facto public mental institutions.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
What did the states do with the money?
Are states powerless to address the problem? Is the answer to every problem a big, bloated program administered by the geniuses in Washington D.C? Why would a federal War on Mental Illness be any more effective than their War on Poverty or War on Drugs?
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Did you read the article?
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
Real quick -- the problem isn't the people who live in DC, it's the people sent here by red state voters.
INDY, this post is cruel and heartless toward anyone who has seriously considered taking their own lives for any number of reasons. Your desperate attempts to justify your bigotry has only revealed your ignorance and horrible lack of empathy. I've been ignoring your posts as of late, but this I could not ignore. This is really sad that you would stoop this low, and even hurt anyone who saw this post, particularly those you gave no kindness to
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
It's not so much cruel as very telling how he has no idea what it is like to feel so incredibly miserable and depressed and worthless that the only way out would be to kill yourself. Also that he has no respect for people who have felt that way, because he doesn't understand it. Sounds familiar doesn't it...
True, but his post touched a nerve for me and I'm sure anyone just browsing around. Overall, it just wasn't very kind.
Galeongirl
Galeonbroad
It is pretty insulting yes. But I stopped caring about the opinions of people like him a long time ago. As will the rest of the world some day, and these cruel and respectless opinions will die a silent death.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Good. Maybe they'll think twice about the pain they'll leave behind and think three hundred times about the finality of the act of suicide. Maybe you missed the "all suicides are tragedies" part of the post. I'm anti-suicide. All major religions are anti-suicide.
Bigotry, hows that?
Those with suicidal thoughts need sympathy, compassion, treatment and love but they don't need enablers. One can have compassion and still acknowledge the truth that suicide is almost always a selfish act.
Too bad, I've enjoyed some of our conversations and in reality I bet we agree on the central message we should be sending even if we differ (greatly) on the language.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Do you think suicide has only one victim? If i could get FYM to think just a little about what happens AFTER a suicide you might understand some of my sentiments.
